1917 sovereigns

[Binny]

Last year before I knew anything about precious metals I decided to buy some physical gold and bought 40 sovereigns from Baird (their cheap any age or condition ones somewhere around 5% over spot).  I just then put them in my sock drawer (well not really).  I have had a big PM purchase and was thinking about selling some of the sovereigns on TSF. Obviously had a load of 1911-1913 and even more 1926-1927 but I also had 3 1917 which given the rarity seems unusual and why would Baird sell a 1917 as cheaply as a 1927?

I weighed them (didn't have the scales at the time of purchase) and two are bang on and one is .05g lighter than the other two.

Could any or all of them be restrike (fake) and Baird not notice (or care)?

Photos attached. The first is the lighter coin I am most unhappy with.

Any thoughts.

Matt

[richatthecroft]

These three 1917’s are Perth Branch Mint Sovereigns which was a 4 million mintage and therefore, not rare but are rated as ‘scarce’ by Marsh but they aren’t a rarity.   If you had received x3 London 1917’s I would be concerned!

I would say that Baird test all they receive so they are likely all ok.  
 

Hard to tell from the photos, but the first might have been polished? 

Edited July 16, 2021 by richatthecroft

[Binny]

Thanks Rich - my eyesight was so bad i didn't see the P untill i uploaded the photos and see them on the pc.

all good I hope.

Matt

[Booky586]

The lettering on the obverse of your 1st coin doesn't look as crisp as it should. It could just be the photo quality but it might be worth a further check.

Can you post a better picture?

 

[Binny]

48 minutes ago, Booky586 said:

The lettering on the obverse of your 1st coin doesn't look as crisp as it should. It could just be the photo quality but it might be worth a further check.

Can you post a better picture?

 

Is this better Booky?

[Booky586]

I hope I'm wrong and don't want to worry you but it looks suspiciously like a counterfeit to me.

On the back of George's head there are raised globulals as if he's been sweating, these shouldn't be there. The field should be flat but yours looks rough and uneven. There's a crack running from his top lip to the letter S and the lettering looks rounded at the edges instead of crisp. It could be a cast copy.

I would advise you to check it's weight and dimensions to see if there is anything else out of the ordinary.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Booky586
Typo

[Binny]

It looks wrong to me  - and 7.94 weight

[Booky586]

I've attached a photo a genuine coin for you to make a comparison against. Perhaps contact Bairds and ask them to exchange it.

[Binny]

Thanks for the input Booky.

[dicker]

All sorts of wrong.

Best

Dicker

[eblend]

Slightly off topic ...

I have, of course, wanted a 1917 London Mint sovereign for a long time.  It would complete my set of 1817, 1857, ... , 1957, 2017  (I know, not 50 years, but there are other reasons 😉).  Someone standing in for my account manager at the Royal Mint - a young lad, I think - phoned me up trying to sell me various coins they had, including some guineas that I'm not particularly interested in.  He also said that he had some ("some", note) 1917 London Mint sovereigns for £650.  I said, "Are you sure?"  He must have heard something in my voice, because he said he'd check with his manager.  Anyway, it turned out that the coins they were selling for that price were from various mints around the world.  They did have a London Mint coin, in reasonable condition ... for £10,500 ... which I thought was more like it ...

Ah ... one day ... sigh ... 

[Binny]

One day Rodney

Edited July 17, 2021 by Binny
Spelling

[dicker]

In the early days of HGM, you could buy sovereigns and get Shields on a lucky dip basis for a reasonable premium over spot.   
 

Pretty sure no one checked them for rarity based on the coins I received.  
 

Best

Dicker

[Richym99]

23 hours ago, Booky586 said:

I hope I'm wrong and don't want to worry you but it looks suspiciously like a counterfeit to me.

On the back of George's head there are raised globulals as if he's been sweating, these shouldn't be there. The field should be flat but yours looks rough and uneven. There's a crack running from his top lip to the letter S and the lettering looks rounded at the edges instead of crisp. It could be a cast copy.

I would advise you to check it's weight and dimensions to see if there is anything else out of the ordinary.

The problem is, when you and others say things like that, you do cause worry, particularly for newer members of the community. Judging by the number of threads here lately refering to fake coins, anyone would think that one in two was likely a fake. It is making people second guess themselves.   

How is it that very few will judge the grade of a coin based on a photograph, but many are happy to pronounce a coin as likely a fake based on the same photographs.   

[Booky586]

On 16/07/2021 at 08:47, Binny said:

Could any or all of them be restrike (fake) and Baird not notice (or care)?

Photos attached. The first is the lighter coin I am most unhappy with.

Any thoughts.

 

45 minutes ago, Richym99 said:

The problem is, when you and others say things like that, you do cause worry, particularly for newer members of the community. Judging by the number of threads here lately refering to fake coins, anyone would think that one in two was likely a fake. It is making people second guess themselves.   

How is it that very few will judge the grade of a coin based on a photograph, but many are happy to pronounce a coin as likely a fake based on the same photographs.   

The OP is asking for thoughts regarding retrikes (fakes) based on the photographs. He has his doubts regarding the first one.

I'm merely sharing my observations and trying to be helpful.

If the OP had asked for help judging the grade of his coins them I may have done so, though it's not a skill I have expertise in.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Booky586
Typing correction

[Binny]

I have emailed Bairds and will see what they say. All comments are welcome and appreciated.  I have over 60 sovereigns now and this is the only one which doesn't feel right. It isn't terrible and Bairds may help anyway. Main thing is I am looking to sell a few and I really don't want to be found selling fake sovereigns on TSF.

That is what eBay is for. 👍

Matt

[HawkHybrid]

2 hours ago, Richym99 said:

How is it that very few will judge the grade of a coin based on a photograph, but many are happy to pronounce a coin as likely a fake based on the same photographs.   

 

grading requires being able to see very fine detail or the lack of it, (note the use of the loupe).

also people can't even agree with grading coin in hand let alone pictures. grading is an art.

where as any visible problem with a coin(big or small) is an indicator of a fake. a coin is either

genuine or it's not.

 

HH

Edited July 17, 2021 by HawkHybrid

[Richym99]

19 hours ago, Binny said:

I have emailed Bairds and will see what they say. All comments are welcome and appreciated.  I have over 60 sovereigns now and this is the only one which doesn't feel right. It isn't terrible and Bairds may help anyway. Main thing is I am looking to sell a few and I really don't want to be found selling fake sovereigns on TSF.

That is what eBay is for. 👍

Matt

The problem is, as far as I can see it, you might not be able to sell in on TSF anyway, now you have highlighted suspicions. Would you buy something that has been identified as a potential counterfeit item (not just sovereigns).

If I had suspicions about a coin, my first thought would be to take it to an independant bullion dealer and get it tested, rather than advertise my suspicions.

 

 

[LawrenceChard]

On 16/07/2021 at 08:47, Binny said:

Last year before I knew anything about precious metals I decided to buy some physical gold and bought 40 sovereigns from Baird (their cheap any age or condition ones somewhere around 5% over spot).  I just then put them in my sock drawer (well not really).  I have had a big PM purchase and was thinking about selling some of the sovereigns on TSF. Obviously had a load of 1911-1913 and even more 1926-1927 but I also had 3 1917 which given the rarity seems unusual and why would Baird sell a 1917 as cheaply as a 1927?

I weighed them (didn't have the scales at the time of purchase) and two are bang on and one is .05g lighter than the other two.

Could any or all of them be restrike (fake) and Baird not notice (or care)?

Photos attached. The first is the lighter coin I am most unhappy with.

Any thoughts.

Matt

 

 

I smiled when I read the part of your post where you said before you knew anything about precious metals, you bought some sovereigns from Baird. 🙂

By now, other TSF members have informed you that 1917 sovereigns are not rare. 

1917 Sovereigns Mintage

Mintmark	Mint	Mintage
L	London	1,014,714
C	Ottawa, Canada	58,875
M	Melbourne, Australia	934,469
P	Perth, Australia	4,110,286
S	Sydney, Australia	1,666,000
	Total	7,784,344

Source https://goldsovereigns.co.uk/1917sovereign.html

As you can see, the Perth Mint ones are the highest mintage. The London Mint ones are much rarer than the mintage figure would suggest, as most were melted down.

Although your photos are not great, and as @richatthecroft said "Hard to tell from the photos, but the first might have been polished?", but in this case the obverse (head side) of the first coin is a very obviously a fake. The raised pimples are a dead giveaway, the crack(s) visible on you later photo demand closer inspection. The reverse does not look like the same coin, but mainly due to the colour difference, but it does also appear to have at least one worrying raised pimple.

I doubt that Baird test every coin they handle (it's too slow). Human eye, coupled with some experience, is much quicker and more reliable. I mainly use an XRF machine for a lazy second opinion. The coin looks very polished, probably ex-jewellery, and a dealer who I will not name 🙂 would probably class it as a "grade C" if it was genuine. Its light weight might be due to wear rather than because it is fake. It would be interesting to see an alloy analysis, but you are unlikely to get this if you return it to Baird.

Now you know a little more about precious metals, where would you now buy sovereigns from? 🙂

Even if the alloy content is within normal limits, this is no guarantee that the coin is genuine, although many people do not realise this (including some dealers I suspect).

As it happens, I have never heard of anyone receiving a fake sovereign from Baird, but then I don't remember having been asked to check any sourced from them. They were  originally mainly refiners and scrap metal dealers, and it is quite common for scrap dealers to sell some very questionable quality coins, in my experience.

 

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by LawrenceChard
typo

[dicker]

On 17/07/2021 at 13:19, Richym99 said:

The problem is, when you and others say things like that, you do cause worry, particularly for newer members of the community. Judging by the number of threads here lately refering to fake coins, anyone would think that one in two was likely a fake. It is making people second guess themselves.   

How is it that very few will judge the grade of a coin based on a photograph, but many are happy to pronounce a coin as likely a fake based on the same photographs.   

Hi @Richym99
Grading (on say) the Sheldon scale is not simple unless you have handled a great deal of coins day after day, month after month year on year.  Even the grading between two graders may differ by a grade.  My guesses are often 6 grades either way on the sheldon scale when I have tried to guess grades.

When it comes to authenticity, one of the strengths of the forums is that people can post up a photo that is seen by experts (I don’t include myself in this category at all).

Some members have handled literally millions of coins in their professional careers as numismatists and freely offer their expert opinions for free.  

I have personally been very grateful for opinions of others on this forum (publicly and privately) which has never been negative or judgemental - just informative and supportive.  

I am pretty sure no one here is here to “cause worry”, just to share knowledge and make sure each other don’t get ripped off   

All the best to you

Dicker