Re-Grading from NGC to PCGS

[Ablist]

Does anyone know if they actually have to take it out of the holder and do the designations stay the same if it does in fact grade the same? ... For example if its  an NGC FDOI coin, will PCGS also label it as FDOI? I couldn't find a clear answer on my searches here or on the web or on their sites...

[Au79]

https://www.ngccoin.com/submit/services-fees/ngc/ scroll down to crossover

https://www.pcgs.com/crossover

NGC and PCGS slabs are design differently, hence it is common sense to remove the coin from current slab and reholder the coin into a new slab. There’s no guarantee of similar grade Modern coins could do better to obtain the same grade than non modern coins. It’s better to hear it from an authorise dealer representing the numismatic grading company than I.

 

[Xander]

1 hour ago, Ablist said:

Does anyone know if they actually have to take it out of the holder and do the designations stay the same if it does in fact grade the same? ... For example if its  an NGC FDOI coin, will PCGS also label it as FDOI? I couldn't find a clear answer on my searches here or on the web or on their sites...

@Numistackermight know the answer.

[Ablist]

And I guess to clarify my question. More specifically I want to convert some NGC coins to PCGS. PCGS cross over rate to the same grade that NGC gave, is, I believe less than 50%.  So... Do they actually take it out before grading it? Or do they grade it while it is still encapsulated? So that way you know for sure what they are going to grade it as, before they remove it to re-slab it in their own branded holder... So you can decide if you want to transfer it. I hope this makes sense.

[goldmember44]

43 minutes ago, Ablist said:

And I guess to clarify my question. More specifically I want to convert some NGC coins to PCGS. PCGS cross over rate to the same grade that NGC gave, is, I believe less than 50%.  So... Do they actually take it out before grading it? Or do they grade it while it is still encapsulated? So that way you know for sure what they are going to grade it as, before they remove it to re-slab it in their own branded holder... So you can decide if you want to transfer it. I hope this makes sense.

Why go through all that hassle? What is the aim of the exercise? Isn't it easier to get a raw coin and grade it through PCGS, or get one already graded by PCGS if you want it? Unless it's a truly scarce coin I don't really see the point.

[Fivepoundfred]

PCGS will only remove the coin from the NGC holder when they have inspected the coin and deem it suitable to crossover at the same grade, if not they will just return it to you in the NGC holder, but you must request when submitting that you want the coin to hold it's current grade.

The last time i crossed NGC to PCGS the coin was designated by NGC as one of first fifty struck and when i got the coin back PCGS had designated it " first strike " I did not make a request for this and not really sure if this is PCGS standard practise. 

 PCGS currently quote their successful crossover rate is 40% in the last 30 days and 38% in the last 12 months.

 

[Ablist]

 

Added 0 minutes later...

1 hour ago, goldmember44 said:

Why go through all that hassle? What is the aim of the exercise? Isn't it easier to get a raw coin and grade it through PCGS, or get one already graded by PCGS if you want it? Unless it's a truly scarce coin I don't really see the point.

Essentially because I have been able to get considerably more money for PCGS coins than NGC, and I have had an easier time selling them. There are some that I think will be worth it essentially to sell them, or on the other hand to complete a collection in all Gold Shield holders. 

[Ablist]

45 minutes ago, Fivepoundfred said:

PCGS will only remove the coin from the NGC holder when they have inspected the coin and deem it suitable to crossover at the same grade, if not they will just return it to you in the NGC holder, but you must request when submitting that you want the coin to hold it's current grade.

The last time i crossed NGC to PCGS the coin was designated by NGC as one of first fifty struck and when i got the coin back PCGS had designated it " first strike " I did not make a request for this and not really sure if this is PCGS standard practise. 

 PCGS currently quote their successful crossover rate is 40% in the last 30 days and 38% in the last 12 months.

 

Perfect, Thanks! This is what I needed to know!

[goldmember44]

1 minute ago, Ablist said:

 

Added 0 minutes later...

Essentially because I have been able to get considerably more money for PCGS coins than NGC. There are some that I think will be worth it essentially to sell them, or on the other hand to complete a collection in all Gold Shield holders. 

I haven't seen any real proof of this in reality. 

[Ablist]

I sell coins primarily on Ebay and to other people I know personally out here in Cali. I have seen a distinct preference for PCGS graded coins and they are easier for me to sell. I recently sold a NGC 2018 Maple Incuse for about $40 US - within a few dollars of what I payed for it. You can find these NGCs all day in 70. They are easy to come by. I also sold a PCGS 2018 Maple Incuse MS70 for $135 that I paid $65 for. So I close to doubled my money on that coin. Try to even find a PCGS Maple Incuse for less than $100 - if you can even find one. Im not saying its an absolute rule but I have had much better luck with PCGS personally. This has been pretty consistent for me. Gotta follow the money is my main rule.

[*tada*]

I can answer this question as I’ve went through countless of these.

Short answer: PCGS will NOT honor NGC early release, first release, or FDOI. If you got one back with same label, consider yourself lucky.

If you submit a coin with these label, PCGS will give you a call or send an email asking if you still want to proceed if losing the special label.

Numistacker may know if the reverse holds true, but I think NGC probably wouldn’t honor PCGS first strike label as well?

[Au79]

3 hours ago, Ablist said:

I sell coins primarily on Ebay and to other people I know personally out here in Cali. I have seen a distinct preference for PCGS graded coins and they are easier for me to sell. I recently sold a NGC 2018 Maple Incuse for about $40 US - within a few dollars of what I payed for it. You can find these NGCs all day in 70. They are easy to come by. I also sold a PCGS 2018 Maple Incuse MS70 for $135 that I paid $65 for. So I close to doubled my money on that coin. Try to even find a PCGS Maple Incuse for less than $100 - if you can even find one. Im not saying its an absolute rule but I have had much better luck with PCGS personally. This has been pretty consistent for me. Gotta follow the money is my main rule.

If your sales coverage is globally, each territories has their preference or strong presence to the numismatic grading company. If PCGS is preferred in California, does not necessary mean it is elsewhere. There are territories which prefer NGCS than PCGS.

[Ablist]

3 hours ago, Au79 said:

If your sales coverage is globally, each territories has their preference or strong presence to the numismatic grading company. If PCGS is preferred in California, does not necessary mean it is elsewhere. There are territories which prefer NGCS than PCGS.

Haha show me those territories! I have a bunch of NGC coins I will happily sell them :) From what I have seen I have consistently gotten more for PCGS. Could just be the coins I am selling or a fluke though, who knows.

[Au79]

1 hour ago, Ablist said:

Haha show me those territories! I have a bunch of NGC coins I will happily sell them From what I have seen I have consistently gotten more for PCGS. Could just be the coins I am selling or a fluke though, who knows.

Territories with:

History of pm coin collecting

Numismatic company presence 

Accessibility of pm coin collectibles 

[Pampfan]

The PCGS 70’s are probably selling for more because the demand by collectors is higher and the population of coins is lower than ngc. You need to look at the population of 70’s graded by ngc and compare to pcgs. 

If ngc pop has 2000 ms70’s and pcgs only has 30 ms70’s, collectors who only collect pcgs will pay more to get it. 

Otherwise it doesn’t make any sense to me that someone would pay that much more for just the grading company holder.

 

[Ablist]

11 hours ago, Pampfan said:

The PCGS 70’s are probably selling for more because the demand by collectors is higher and the population of coins is lower than ngc. You need to look at the population of 70’s graded by ngc and compare to pcgs. 

If ngc pop has 2000 ms70’s and pcgs only has 30 ms70’s, collectors who only collect pcgs will pay more to get it. 

Otherwise it doesn’t make any sense to me that someone would pay that much more for just the grading company holder.

 

This is absolutely the truth in my experience. Personally I don’t have a lot of faith in NGC 70s anymore. Many of them are actually 69s. A 70 should be flawless and over half of their modern  graded 70s are not flawless. I have a number of NGC coins now that are a wash because of their overgrading. I believe they have really damaged their reputation. I think people are starting to realize this and want a true 70 coin when they pay for it. A 69, for a modern coin, is basically worth melt, almost always. I’m sick of buying NGCs overgraded modern coins. It’s not just the population, it’s the consistent overgrading. It’s bad business. I won’t buy an NGC 70 anymore if I can’t see it in person first. The designation of 70 from NGC has lost its meaning and value to me. When I get. PCGS modern 70, I have confidence that it really will be a 70. NGC is just making it worse for themselves by overgrading huge populations of modern coins that are not true 70s. Maybe they will sort this out and maybe not. Time will tell.

[goldmember44]

8 minutes ago, Ablist said:

This is absolutely the truth in my experience. Personally I don’t have a lot of faith in NGC 70s anymore. Many of them are actually 69s. A 70 should be flawless and over half of their modern  graded 70s are not flawless. I have a number of NGC coins now that are a wash because of their overgrading. I believe have they have really damaged their reputation. I think people are starting to realize this and want a true 70 coin when they pay for it. A 69, for a modern coin, is basically worth melt, almost always. I’m sick of buying NGCs overgraded modern coins. 

That's not what he was saying, he said there is more demand for a smaller population because of PCGS collectors competing for a smaller pool of coins... nothing to do with the quality of the coins.

If NGC really was as unreliable as you claim them to be, they wouldn't be this popular. I personally prefer my coins in NGC holders, as do many other collectors... in fact the majority prefer NGC. Everyone has their own preference.... and I respect that. 

I have seen several cases where people have reholdered their PCGS coins into NGC slabs, to fit with the rest of their collection. It really is about personal preference.

[goldmember44]

Also, you say you're sick of buying NGC coins... then why are you buying them at all? Why not buy PCGS then if that is what you prefer? I didn't know there was any pressure to buy NGC graded coins... it's your own choice.

[Ablist]

18 minutes ago, goldmember44 said:

Also, you say you're sick of buying NGC coins... then why are you buying them at all? Why not buy PCGS then if that is what you prefer? I didn't know there was any pressure to buy NGC graded coins... it's your own choice.

Well I have quit buying them essentially. I have been burned 3 times in the past year getting a 70 that was actually a 69. One was a queeens beast FDOI that wasn’t cheap. So no, I am not happy with them. I covered this and there are photos in another post about NGC from someone else.  I was a huge fan of theirs, but now only if I can see the coin. I think their grading is fine with the exception of modern numismatics. I have some old peace dollars from them that are great. And I am sure I will buy an NGC coin again. I just would not buy a modern silver 70 from them again without seeing it first. 

Agreed that everyone has their preferences. My preference is to have a coin actually be a 70 when it says it is a 70. PCGS has been way more consistent for me. I have close to 1000 graded coins right now. So it’s a sizeable sample that has led me to this conclusion.

[goldmember44]

1 minute ago, Ablist said:

Well I have quit buying them essentially. I have been burned 3 times in the past year getting a 70 that was actually a 69. One was a queeens beast FDOI that wasn’t cheap. So no, I am not happy with them. I covered this and there are photos in another post about NGC from someone else.  I was a huge fan of theirs, but now only if I can see the coin. I think their grading is fine with the exception of modern numismatics. I have some old peace dollars from them that are great. And I am sure I will buy an. gC coin again. I just would not buy a modern silver 70 from them again without seeing it first. 

Agreed that everyone has their preferences. My preference is to have a coin actually be a 70 when it says it is a 70. PCGS has been way more consistent for me. I have close to 1000 graded coins right now. So it’s a sizeable sample that has led me to this conclusion.

That's fair enough. I wasn't asking this to be difficult, more out of curiosity since I'm quite new at this and still learning.

[Ablist]

18 minutes ago, goldmember44 said:

That's not what he was saying, he said there is more demand for a smaller population because of PCGS collectors competing for a smaller pool of coins... nothing to do with the quality of the coins.

If NGC really was as unreliable as you claim them to be, they wouldn't be this popular. I personally prefer my coins in NGC holders, as do many other collectors... in fact the majority prefer NGC. Everyone has their own preference.... and I respect that. 

An I have a friend who loves NGC holders as well. He likes the white and black plastic as opposed to the clear from PCGS. I’m not buying the plastic however, I’m buying the coin. I don’t care what color the case is or the brand. I want a 70 coin.

[Ablist]

1 minute ago, goldmember44 said:

That's fair enough. I wasn't asking this to be difficult, more out of curiosity since I'm quite new at this and still learning.

As am I my friend. Hence a lot of my frustration with NGC, because I feel like I have been taken advantage of by way of trust. Trust that they grade modern coins accurately. And now with quite a bit of experience in modern numismatics I have lost faith in them. 

[Pampfan]

@Ablist 

I believe that both companies have a guarantee that the grade they have given on a coin is backed by the company. If you have been taken advantage of by NGC - you should contact them and let them know. 

Also - the current state of coin grading by both companies is done by humans. We are not perfect - and there will obviously be some grading errors which occur. 

I remember a time when ngc and pcgs did not grade silver eagles. That changed when they realized they can make a lot of money grading modern Bullion coins, with special labels and designations. Can you  blame them - they need to make money to survive as a company and the market has requested these type of services to fill the needs of the collector.

We all can decide what to buy in the market - if a Bullion company only uses NGC to grade a bunch of coins - and you only collect pcgs - then you have a problem - you can cross-over and hope it works or grade a bunch with pcgs yourself.

I personally prefer ngc - cause I like the fancy labels (it gives in my opinion an added flair to the collection - instead of a boring White case on brown label inside.)

[Ablist]

10 minutes ago, Pampfan said:

@Ablist 

I believe that both companies have a guarantee that the grade they have given on a coin is backed by the company. If you have been taken advantage of by NGC - you should contact them and let them know. 

Also - the current state of coin grading by both companies is done by humans. We are not perfect - and there will obviously be some grading errors which occur. 

I remember a time when ngc and pcgs did not grade silver eagles. That changed when they realized they can make a lot of money grading modern Bullion coins, with special labels and designations. Can you  blame them - they need to make money to survive as a company and the market has requested these type of services to fill the needs of the collector.

We all can decide what to buy in the market - if a Bullion company only uses NGC to grade a bunch of coins - and you only collect pcgs - then you have a problem - you can cross-over and hope it works or grade a bunch with pcgs yourself.

I personally prefer ngc - cause I like the fancy labels (it gives in my opinion an added flair to the collection - instead of a boring White case on brown label inside.)

How do you do that @ symbol so you don’t have to quote someone hahah??? I like that. 

So we are basically in agreement. Firstly I realize this may come off as I am anti NGC. I am not. I have a LOT of their coins, and many I am very happy with. 

I also go for specialty labels as you mentioned. FDOP, FDOI, Signatures, special designs. I agree with many others that these are fun and add a different level of collectibility and value. 

I am not ultimately for any one grader. I will but ICG or ANACS as well, if the coin is graded properly. But, for me, they have been in the category of only “buy”if I can see the coin in person. NGC has fallen into this category for me as well now, because of too many problem 70 modern coins. As I said before, I haven’t had any issues with their older coins. And I am sure I will buy another NGC coin. 

The bottom line is this. I don’t generally submit silver because it’s not worth it - all the time effort, sorting, mailing etc. it’s too labor intensive and you don’t get your money back. I buy graded 70 coins primarily that don’t run up at auction, that I think are long term collectible or that I can flip. 

 Occasionally it may be worth it to switch coins over to PCGS. But they are much stricter on modern 70s. So this is all takes time for me to sort etc. Time isn’t just money, time is everything. And I don’t have time for a lot of things. I already need 48 hours in a day ha!

PCGS is currently the only company that I feel safe with buying a modern 70 from, unseen. This has nothing to do with preference for a brand. It has to do with factual experience. 

The main point of this post is, that there are occasionally coins in the PCGS realm that command way higher prices. (I’m sure the reverse is also true at times). I was just trying to figure out if I could preserve labeling if I transfer a coin over to PCGS. Which it appears I cannot.

For me this is all about money making and I have to keep my personal preferences out of it and follow the money.