Coin Auctions ‘Up North’

[sovereignsteve]

48 minutes ago, goldking said:

They're going to know when the auction starts so it's a moot point.  Again, if the bidders have set their maximum at 238 then what does it matter?  You're going to win regardless of what point the commission bid is revealed.

You're not getting the point HH is making.

You're assuming more than one commission bidder. You will only know the maximum commission bid on the books if there are others to force it up to that level.

In the case of your original problem of potentially wasting your time travelling because you didn't know the maximum commission bid on the books; if that had been just one bidder bidding more than you were prepared to pay, why do you have the right to know an individual's maximum commission bid? That person is probably not in a position to increase their bids live so it's only fair that no one gets the chance to see their maximum unless they actually bid more.

[goldking]

3 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

You're not getting the point HH is making.

You're assuming more than one commission bidder. You will only know the maximum commission bid on the books if there are others to force it up to that level.

In the case of your original problem of potentially wasting your time travelling because you didn't know the maximum commission bid on the books; if that had been just one bidder bidding more than you were prepared to pay, why do you have the right to know an individual's maximum commission bid? That person is probably not in a position to increase their bids live so it's only fair that no one gets the chance to see their maximum unless they actually bid more.

I don't think you guys are understanding me.  There is no assumption that there is more than 1 commission bid and in fact nowhere in my posts have I indicated or even suggested that.  There was only 1 commission bidder for the bulk of the lots and that was a bid of £239 for every lot.  The auctioneer even said at the start of each lot "I have 239 on commission already, I'm looking for 240".  It was clear that was both their minimum and maximum bid otherwise they wouldn't have sold to the room at 240 would they?  Nor would they have sold to the commission bidder at 239 when there were no room bids if that was not their minimum bid; they would have had to have started at a lower opener.  This is why it doesn't make any sense whatsoever for the commission bid to not be revealed,.  If the commission bidder had different minimum and maximum bids set then of course that would absolutely make sense and you wouldn't want your maximum bid known to the room, but that is not the case here.

[HelpingHands]

Bidding often starts around the lower estimate for a lot.    

If a Moorcroft vase was estimated at £300-£400  then the auction might start at £300.   

If there was only one commission bidder and their maximum was £600 they might ask the room for bids of £320 and carry on in increments until the maximum commission was beat or the room was out.   Why should you know that their maximum was £600?   It might help to think about something other that a sovereign selling for spot.

[sovereignsteve]

7 minutes ago, goldking said:

I don't think you guys are understanding me.  There is no assumption that there is more than 1 commission bid and in fact nowhere in my posts have I indicated or even suggested that.  There was only 1 commission bidder for the bulk of the lots and that was a bid of £239 for every lot.  The auctioneer even said at the start of each lot "I have 239 on commission already, I'm looking for 240".  It was clear that was both their minimum and maximum bid otherwise they wouldn't have sold to the room at 240 would they?  Nor would they have sold to the commission bidder at 239 when there were no room bids if that was not their minimum bid; they would have had to have started at a lower opener.  This is why it doesn't make any sense whatsoever for the commission bid to not be revealed,.  If the commission bidder had different minimum and maximum bids set then of course that would absolutely make sense and you wouldn't want your maximum bid known to the room, but that is not the case here.

Yes I see your point and I was actually mistaken. If there is only one commission bidder then the auctioneer would start at their maximum and ask for higher bids. The issue though is when there are more than one and the live bidding starts at the maximum of the underbidder. The auctioneer should not reveal the maximum commission bid on the books until the room bids reach this level.

[goldking]

7 minutes ago, HelpingHands said:

Bidding often starts around the lower estimate for a lot.    

If a Moorcroft vase was estimated at £300-£400  then the auction might start at £300.   

If there was only one commission bidder and their maximum was £600 they might ask the room for bids of £320 and carry on in increments until the maximum commission was beat or the room was out.   Why should you know that their maximum was £600?   It might help to think about something other that a sovereign selling for spot.

With all due respect, you've not understood anything that I've written and you're talking about some completely different and irrelevant scenario.

[sovereignsteve]

3 minutes ago, HelpingHands said:

Bidding often starts around the lower estimate for a lot.    

If a Moorcroft vase was estimated at £300-£400  then the auction might start at £300.   

If there was only one commission bidder and their maximum was £600 they might ask the room for bids of £320 and carry on in increments until the maximum commission was beat or the room was out.   Why should you know that their maximum was £600?   It might help to think about something other that a sovereign selling for spot.

Yes indeed. There are differing practices and it could be argued the way the bullion sovereign auction in question was conducted is wrong in principle. However, it is the job of the auctioneer to maximise selling prices and more often than not lots sell above the commission bids to the room or the internet so starting levels don't really come into it.

However, there are often auctions with little interest and the starting bid can have a large bearing on selling prices if there is just one commission bidder.

[sovereignsteve]

another aspect that is particularly relevant to bullion coin auctions is the bidding increment policy.

many auctioneers publish these but then completely disregard them when it comes to commission bids. most will not accept any deviation from the increments with online bidding and some won't with live bidding either. however, some will accept smaller increments in the room when trying to extract the last pound.

I'm sure the commission bids of £239 in question won't have fallen within the increment framework so in theory shouldn't have been accepted.

[HelpingHands]

10 minutes ago, goldking said:

With all due respect, you've not understood anything that I've written and you're talking about some completely different and irrelevant scenario.

Exactly.  You need a rule that covers all scenarios.

[goldking]

1 minute ago, sovereignsteve said:

another aspect that is particularly relevant to bullion coin auctions is the bidding increment policy.

many auctioneers publish these but then completely disregard them when it comes to commission bids. most will not accept any deviation from the increments with online bidding and some won't with live bidding either. however, some will accept smaller increments in the room when trying to extract the last pound.

I'm sure the commission bids of £239 in question won't have fallen within the increment framework so in theory shouldn't have been accepted.

Sheffield changed their policy in January due to complaints about it from the room bidders.  They used to do the sovs in the same £5 increments as the normal lots but that's a huuuuuuuge difference in price between say, £235 and £240 when you scale it up to spot price and add in their fees.  So from January the increment on sov lots changed to £1 increments, which made good sense to do.

[sovereignsteve]

1 hour ago, goldking said:

Sheffield changed their policy in January due to complaints about it from the room bidders.  They used to do the sovs in the same £5 increments as the normal lots but that's a huuuuuuuge difference in price between say, £235 and £240 when you scale it up to spot price and add in their fees.  So from January the increment on sov lots changed to £1 increments, which made good sense to do.

that's fair enough if that is their published policy, very sensible and useful for for bullion sovs

[richatthecroft]

On 21/02/2020 at 19:07, goldking said:

Just got back from this month's auction at Sheffield Gallery.  Picked me up another 31x 1966 gold sovs in mint condition to go with the 49 I bought last month !   

Maybe time to get your gloves on and pick out some of the nicer examples of the ‘66’s you have...

 

[goldking]

That is interesting, Rich.  I'm just a 'basic' stacker and not into all this fancy coin collecting shenanigans like many of the folks here are.  I have to confess when I saw the pics of them in Sheffield's online catalogue they all looked rough as old boots but I was surprised to find that they are all in good to very good condition considering their age and some certainly look like they've had very little use and still very shiny.  I don't plan to do anything with them until I retire but that may change if the gold price goes to $10k in between times .

[JunkBond]

I was surprised at the price of the 1964 MS66 @richatthecroft  £875!

[goldking]

Maybe two collectors needing to fill a gap in their collection so ended up fighting over it ?

[JunkBond]

Only one and none higher at PCGS. 👍

Must do my homework before posting

[richatthecroft]

Just now, JunkBond said:

I was surprised at the price of the 1964 MS66 @richatthecroft  £875!

Me too!

But when two people ‘need’ a top of the population Sovereign...

@goldking you have a lot of 1966 Sovereigns to sort through- many, if not most of them will be MS- but if you have one or two pristine ones then it might well be worth grading them?  If they were mine, I would be tempted investing half a day appraising them.

[goldking]

I wouldn't even know where to start, Rich .  If you're clued up on this sort of thing you're welcome to stop by if you're in my neck of the woods and take a look at them .

[richatthecroft]

26 minutes ago, goldking said:

I was surprised to find that they are all in good to very good condition considering their age and some certainly look like they've had very little use and still very shiny. 

I’m definitely no expert- but just going through them, discarding any with really obvious knocks, dings and scratches  or unfair wear and tear- and then discriminate and discard in terms of lack of lustre, and any defined marks- then cherry pick the cream of the crop- particularly if the fields are clean- the strike on these Mary Gillick portrait Sovereigns is not too defined, but maybe you have one that stands out? 

[trp]

9th-10th March 1818 Auctioneers - Collections Auction 

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/1818-auctioneers/catalogue-id-sr1810335/search-filter?archiveSearch=False&categoryCode=COI

[Seasider]

5 hours ago, trp said:

9th-10th March 1818 Auctioneers - Collections Auction 

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/1818-auctioneers/catalogue-id-sr1810335/search-filter?archiveSearch=False&categoryCode=COI

I take it you're after the 1691 5 Guinea?

[trp]

20 minutes ago, Seasider said:

I take it you're after the 1691 5 Guinea?

😂 oh yeah sure that’s what I’m after, at that guide price I’ll take 5!

At the minute my budget would hardly cover those two Farthings 🤣

[Seasider]

At least you'd have something to rub together!

[sovereignsteve]

12 hours ago, trp said:

9th-10th March 1818 Auctioneers - Collections Auction 

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/1818-auctioneers/catalogue-id-sr1810335/search-filter?archiveSearch=False&categoryCode=COI

my local auction house, i may well be there😉

[trp]

Just now, sovereignsteve said:

my local auction house, i may well be there😉

Mine too buddy, I’m there most Mondays 😄 

[sovereignsteve]

1 minute ago, trp said:

Mine too buddy, I’m there most Mondays 😄 

never seen as many sovs as this one and i doubt there'll be many bargains😁