When is VAT not a tax

[Pete]

I buy gold from HGM and really like their service but I wouldn't consider buying silver.
Having just looked this morning at their website I feel this is totally misleading -

As an example, you can buy an American Silver Eagle TAX FREE

Right !

Then you see your invoice - shocking behaviour and HGM are not alone in this misleading advertising.
I always thought VAT was Value Added TAX so buying tax free it is not.

[Norskgeld]

It's only VAT free if you choose to have it stored and don't take physical possession of it.

Yup it's annoying innit but they all seem to do the same.

It's like the annoying trick of displaying prices "FROM" and then finding you have to buy 100 + coins to get that price.

It's totally unnecessary in my opinion as it just pisses people off and pissing your customers off is never a good thing.

 

 

[Tingles]

Yep happens a lot in all retail sectors ... upto 70% OFF!

[sixgun]

The thing is HGM should be selling these coins without VAT. They are all second hand. VAT has been paid on them when they were bought new. I see Atkinsons and Chard are selling 'VAT free' - HGM ought to as well. I wouldn't buy silver from HGM, their prices are not competitive.

[bluemoon]

Yeah it's the old bait & switch technique. Not nice, although I've gotten rather numbed to it these days, almost expecting the catch as soon as I see it. Perhaps more of us should be annoyed by it and make our feelings clear.

[Finbinfin]

1 hour ago, sixgun said:

The thing is HGM should be selling these coins without VAT. They are all second hand. VAT has been paid on them when they were bought new. I see Atkinsons and Chard are selling 'VAT free' - HGM ought to as well. I wouldn't buy silver from HGM, their prices are not competitive.

It doesn't matter how many times they're sold, VAT is chargeable on sale of all silver coins bought for physical delivery (if the seller is VAT registered).

 

Also, I can't see any examples on Chards or Atkinsons where it isn't?

Agree though it's very annoying not to quote the all-in price. 

[sixgun]

9 minutes ago, Finbinfin said:

Also, I can't see any examples on Chards or Atkinsons where it isn't?

 

https://atkinsonsbullion.com/pre-owned/silver/pre-owned-silver-coins/pre-owned-2017-uk-queen’s-beasts-the-griffin-2oz-s

Pre-Owned 2017 UK Queen’s Beasts The Griffin 2oz Silver Coin - VAT Free

" These coins are sold on the second-hand margin scheme, so there is no VAT to pay. "

[mikeiones32]

It's a bit odd, sometimes the pre-owneds excludes vat, sometimes they have vat on them.

Atkinsons also have a Pre-Owned PAMP bar, but that does add VAT back on if you view it......

anyone know why the bar is subject to vat still ?

[sovereignsteve]

2 hours ago, Finbinfin said:

Also, I can't see any examples on Chards or Atkinsons where it isn't?

Chards do it sometimes depending on where they source the stock. Atkinsons do it all the time.

[Pete]

In my experience buying in the UK, even if a dealer chooses to not charge VAT at 20%, the price you pay is pretty much the same.

Found this extract in a VAT manual -
Pity none of our UK sellers use it like our friends over the Channel.

[ChardsCoinandBullionDealer]

Good afternoon,

 

I saw that we were mentioned selling VAT free silver......just to clarify we do not sell physical VAT free silver for delivery. This is illegal (as my understanding goes) as silver coins new and pre-owned attract standard rate VAT.

 

We do sell VAT free silver but for storage only outside of the UK. We do try and make this clear in the product title to prevent the 'clickbait' nature of the phrase. If you think this can be improved please let me know as its not the intention. We do have many customers happy with the VAT free storage so if your recommendation is to remove it this wont happen im afraid!

 

We also sell second hand silver on the margin scheme for delivery and we have a full explanation of this on our blog page for those inclined to read it. In a nutshell you still pay VAT on silver whether its new or pre owned and i am unsure how companies can sell pre-owned VAT free silver to a UK or EU customer and suggesting so is misleading at best. The only difference is that for second hand silver you pay VAT on the profit margin as the VAT on the coin was already paid when it was first bought from a retailer. 

 

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/special-scheme-silver/259

 

Regards, Ian 

 

Edit: sellers over the channel are using the differential tax scheme which is not available to UK companies and is somewhat of a loophole left from previous interventions from Brussels - https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/vat-free-silver/293

Let me know if we are missing any information or anything as i am keen to document the most up to date advice on this topic as it always raises its head - even in our showroom! 

 

 

 

[sixgun]

1 hour ago, ChardsCoinandBullionDealer said:

We also sell second hand silver on the margin scheme for delivery and we have a full explanation of this on our blog page for those inclined to read it. In a nutshell you still pay VAT on silver whether its new or pre owned and i am unsure how companies can sell pre-owned VAT free silver to a UK or EU customer and suggesting so is misleading at best. The only difference is that for second hand silver you pay VAT on the profit margin as the VAT on the coin was already paid when it was first bought from a retailer.

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/special-scheme-silver/259

How many of the silver forum people understand it.

VAT has already been paid and the customer pays VAT on the dealer's margin. The coin is not having (extra) VAT added (it is already there in the second hand price paid by the dealer) but it is being added to the profit margin. So when Atkinson's advertise their second hand coins as'VAT free,' this is how we understand it. It is like the coins from the Continent - these are advertised as VAT free but they aren't VAT free, just at a lower rate which is in the price.

What pisses us off is when second hand coins have the full VAT slapped on (again). HMRC have already had their VAT the first time round and then they get it again....and potentially again and again. All the time the punters are suffering.

Now when this margin scheme is being applied why is it that bars do not get the same treatment as coins?

[silenceissilver]

7 hours ago, mikeiones32 said:

It's a bit odd, sometimes the pre-owneds excludes vat, sometimes they have vat on them.

Atkinsons also have a Pre-Owned PAMP bar, but that does add VAT back on if you view it......

anyone know why the bar is subject to vat still ?

This German dealer advices not to buy bars at all unless they are coinbars (bars with coin emblems that count as legal tender somewhere, minted on them). He also says if he buys coins without VAT, from private persons,  a none EU country or another domestic dealer, he can sell silver coins with a differential tax of 7% rather than 19% VAT. On (non-coin-)bars he always has to add VAT though. He also says some (continental) dealers don't do this because it's too much a hassle to differentiate between the exactly same coins but with different prices. He also advices to buy coins from outside the EU, e.g. the Maple Leaf as he has to put VAT on Philharmonics and Britannias. That's really a sad state of affairs.

Another difference between the continent and the UK, mentioned in another video of another dealer, on the continent or at least in Germany, there is no capital gain tax after one year, regardless of how much your gain is, so if you keep your receipt and wait one year, there no capital gain tax. For most of us only interesting in the case of hyperinflation though, I think it starts with ca 11.000 difference between buying and selling, in the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFbURJwc1D8

[silenceissilver]

2 hours ago, sixgun said:

 

I love your avatar. I - am - not - a - robot, lol

[sixgun]

2 minutes ago, silenceissilver said:

I love your avatar. I - am - not - a - robot, lol

That's racist - shame shame shame - "HEY HEY...HO HO...silcenceissilver Has Got to GO!