Bullion for Less Disappointing Experience

[Shinus73]

I’m not generally one for moaning or rubbishing people on line, but my experience with this company has left me wanting to.

Following a tip off on the ‘Gold Deals’ thread, I took a punt on a 2016 Pamp Indian Sovereign. Placed the order at 6:15 am Wednesday, received an order confirmation and paid by bank transfer when I got to work. Done and dusted by 8:45 am.

I heard nothing further, so e-mailed Thursday lunchtime and was informed that my payment had not been received, and this was the reason I had not received any correspondence. I should contact my bank and look into it.

My bank informed me that the payment had been made correctly the previous morning and provided a reference. On providing this reference to the company, I was told that the money had now appeared, but on checking the stock, the coin was no longer available.

I assumed somebody had beaten me to it and asked for a refund - in fairness to the company, they offered a replacement sovereign of similar value and free 5g silver bar and paid the refund quickly when I didn’t want the alternative.

I would have thought no more if it until another (blameless) forum member posted that they had received the coin having ordered it five hours after my initial order.

I contacted the company again and was told that this was because I had paid by bank transfer and the subsequent order had been paid using PayPal. It appears that their ordering system is only linked directly to PayPal. 

There is no mention of this on the website.

I guess my question is how does a business stay in business when it sells an item to a customer and then sells the same item to a different customer 5 hours later?

[Lowlow]

That does suck.

In the U.S. it's called breach of contract.

[Goldhooked]

33 minutes ago, Lowlow said:

That does suck.

In the U.S. it's called breach of contract.

Usually in the UK, the contract is not formed for a website sale until the item has been dispatched.  Right up until that point the seller has not formally accepted your offer to buy and can cancel/refund for any reason they like.  It’s still sh!tty service though!

[Lowlow]

5 minutes ago, Goldhooked said:

Usually in the UK, the contract is not formed for a website sale until the item has been dispatched.  Right up until that point the seller has not formally accepted your offer to buy and can cancel/refund for any reason they like.  It’s still sh!tty service though!

I'm not a lawyer, but I think in the U.S. that only applies on the buyers side, if they cancel an order before it is shipped.

[Lowlow]

1 minute ago, Lowlow said:

I'm not a lawyer, but I think in the U.S. that only applies on the buyers side, if they cancel an order before it is shipped.

You know, I really have no idea on the actual legality of it, so ... let me rephrase, I simply haven't heard of it happening since its in such poor taste.

[Goldhooked]

I sell to all over the world, mostly through Amazon.  Every country has their own set of rules.  Things even differ within the EU.  In Germany buyers have a lot more rights than many other countries.

As a buyer and seller, I think the rules and regs in the UK are pretty fairly balanced for both parties.

[kimchi]

1 minute ago, Goldhooked said:

...

As a buyer and seller, I think the rules and regs in the UK are pretty fairly balanced for both parties.

I don't - full story about BNT to come.

[Goldhooked]

2 minutes ago, kimchi said:

I don't - full story about BNT to come.

The rules and regs don’t stop there being bad sellers but they should be more than adequate to protect you as a consumer.  Unfortunately this does sometimes mean the consumer has to jump through a few hoops but the mechanisms are there to help you get your money back if it is the sellers fault.

[Roy]

It's certainly not cricket.

Another on the blacklist.

Sorry about this @Shinus73 but you've saved us wasting our time in the future 👍

[sixgun]

It all depends on the terms and conditions of sale.

The advertisement on the website is not an offer but an 'invitation to treat' - an invitation to make an offer.

The buyer goes through the process - 'buys' the item and sends money - this does not mean this offer is necessarily accepted. Depending on the terms and conditions, acceptance may occur when the buyer is taken to an acceptance webpage or is sent an email of acceptance. BUT it may be the terms are that this does not constitute acceptance and we are still at the offer stage.

The T&C's may be that an offer is accepted on receipt of funds or on recognised receipt of funds, or acceptance of funds or on dispatch of goods. It should be in the T&C's on the website at what point there is a contract in place. It is acknowledge the seller cannot know who is making offers on the internet in an automatic process, they may run out of stock, an order is made by a previous 'buyer' who was nothing but trouble, an order was made and the country was one not sent to and so on and so on. So the seller may keep the point of contract as far down the road as possible before they are locked into a sale. Personally i would make it as far down the road as possible b/c there are some sh1tty customers who are nothing but a nightmare.

[Martlet]

57 minutes ago, Goldhooked said:

Usually in the UK, the contract is not formed for a website sale until the item has been dispatched.  Right up until that point the seller has not formally accepted your offer to buy and can cancel/refund for any reason they like.  It’s still sh!tty service though!

A contract is based on their terms and conditions. If they say you place the order and its fixed, payment has to be made in such time, so on, thats the terms.  If they say sale is complete when the payment is complete, that's the terms.  Dispatch isn't really a factor in the contract of sale, you own the product at that point (much fun if company goes bust).  This sort of problem doesn't come with regular retail business as people pay CC/Paypal instantly.  

[sovereignsteve]

2 hours ago, Shinus73 said:

Placed the order at 6:15 am Wednesday, received an order confirmation

 

40 minutes ago, sixgun said:

The advertisement on the website is not an offer but an 'invitation to treat' - an invitation to make an offer.

The buyer goes through the process - 'buys' the item and sends money - this does not mean this offer is necessarily accepted

I am pretty sure it is the order confirmation that makes the contract and accepts the offer to treat. It is at this point that the order becomes binding on both parties and the payment has to be made within the stated timeframe by the stated method.

With all PM companies I have dealt with, this has been the case. The terms clearly stated that there is no right of cancellation because of the nature of PMs etc.

However, if the seller pulls out, I'm sure they would claim extenuating circumstances etc and that would that; who's going to sue for breach of contract for a few coins, although I'm sure it would be won.

Terms can be stated but they can't be unfair and legislate away basic contract law.

[Goldhooked]

57 minutes ago, Martlet said:

A contract is based on their terms and conditions. If they say you place the order and its fixed, payment has to be made in such time, so on, thats the terms.  If they say sale is complete when the payment is complete, that's the terms.  Dispatch isn't really a factor in the contract of sale, you own the product at that point (much fun if company goes bust).  This sort of problem doesn't come with regular retail business as people pay CC/Paypal instantly.  

You’re right about the T&Cs.  I said “usually” to keep it simple rather than go in to detail, however dispatch very much comes in to it.  For example....

Argos - “2.3 Acceptance of your order and the completion of the contract between you and us will take place on despatch to you of the products ordered”

John Lewis - “

• We may send you an order acknowledgement email as soon as you place your order, and you will receive an order confirmation email detailing the Products you have ordered. These emails do not constitute acceptance of your order

Order acceptance and the completion of the contract between you and us will take place on the despatch to you of the Products ordered”

AO.com - “However, your order will only be accepted by us once your product(s) have been delivered to you.  Until then we can decline to supply the goods”

You will find that most online retailers do not accept your offer or form the contract until the items have been dispatched.

 

 

[Goldhooked]

Bullion For Less also state your offer is only accepted on dispatch...

”Payment of the price for the goods represents an offer on your part to purchase the goods, which will be accepted by us only when the goods are dispatched.”

https://www.bullionforless.co.uk/termsandcondition.aspx

[Shinus73]

12 minutes ago, Goldhooked said:

Bullion For Less also state your offer is only accepted on dispatch...

”Payment of the price for the goods represents an offer on your part to purchase the goods, which will be accepted by us only when the goods are dispatched.”

https://www.bullionforless.co.uk/termsandcondition.aspx

It’s useful to know, as I wasn’t aware this was common practice.

Of course, as far as I’m concerned the legal niceties make no difference. I take acceptance of my order as a promise to deliver, regardless of T&C’s designed to cover the company in event of their own incompetence. I won’t be using them again and that’s really all that matters.

[Goldhooked]

2 minutes ago, Shinus73 said:

It’s useful to know, as I wasn’t aware this was common practice.

Of course, as far as I’m concerned the legal niceties make no difference. I take acceptance of my order as a promise to deliver, regardless of T&C’s designed to cover the company in event of their own incompetence. I won’t be using them again and that’s really all that matters.

I totally agree with you.  T&Cs mean nothing to your experience if you have encountered poor service.  They will sit up and listen when enough buyers vote with their virtual feet and shop elsewhere.

[Lowlow]

3 hours ago, Martlet said:

Dispatch isn't really a factor in the contract of sale, you own the product at that point (much fun if company goes bust).

I once made an order at the EXACT WRONG TIME and the business went bust after they cashed my check, but before they made delivery.  So ... that's how I found out that we aren't customers, we're "creditors" lol.  You'd think you would be some kind of special class of creditor since you're completely innocent, but nope, you're treated the same as if you had loaned them money to keep their business afloat.