Proof Sovereigns - Missing Box and COA

[KevinOmega]

New on the forum having followed it for some time.

Also, returning back to 'coins' after about 10 - 13 years ... previously I only bought 'bullion' sovereigns.

Now I'm more interested in 'quality over quantity' , so looking more at proofs etc.

Question is : What's the feeling on buying proof sovereigns without the box and certificate. Does it affect the price that much ?

Also would grading effectively remove the need for box and COA anyway?

Appreciate any thoughts from the collective wisdom out there.

[kimchi]

A very interesting question, I look forward to the replies from experienced members!

(Welcome to the forum btw as I don't think we've met  )

[PansPurse]

I'm also curious about the potential for fakes. Being a proof, I would be reluctant to do my usual size/weight/specific gravity tests

[Roy]

Love 'em!

And I'll buy them every week for bullion price. Which is not difficult at all 

Proofs are, however, difficult to fake, I mean why bother to go to that effort, but I take your point @PansPurse.

You need an honest source and a 'familiarity' around sovs to be confident.

[Kman]

I think not having the original box and COA could knock off potentially 10-20% of the price

Generally If people are spending a lot of money on a proof they want the perfect example of that coin, which includes everything that comes with it

12 minutes ago, PansPurse said:

I'm also curious about the potential for fakes. Being a proof, I would be reluctant to do my usual size/weight/specific gravity tests

In 4 years of really being interested in coins, I've never seen a fake modern proof sovereign I don't think, or heard of one, I imagine matching the quality would be very difficult, probably too hard to be worth it 

Apparently there are some fake bullion Elizabeth sovereigns but I think those are very rare too 

https://goldsovereigns.co.uk/1958fakesovereign.html

 

[ilovesilverireallydo]

Sorry to burst your bubble guys, but there are quite a few FAKE proof sovereigns. These buggers can manufacture any year you want if you specify them. 

 

 

[Roy]

On 4/5/2018 at 16:45, Kman said:

I think not having the original box and COA could knock off potentially 10-20% of the price

Generally If people are spending a lot of money on a proof they want the perfect example of that coin, which includes everything that comes with it

I agree, and the OP was talking about 'quality over quantity' so a Proof coin ideally needs a COA and a box.

My proofs are in a box too.... Stack 'em high! 

 

[Pete]

I have proof sovereigns with boxes and COAs and also without.
In my experience you tend to get lower prices than expected when selling and it's really the luck of timing catching buyers.

Don't be fooled by the huge margins shown by most of our main coin sellers.
Some of these will be double the price, so if you come to sell then you would hope to recover your cost but generally speaking I find common proofs selling at around 10% over bullion.
The main dealers will only pay spot.

Rule of thumb - don't pay more than 15% premium and try for less.
Proofs that do not have a box and COA can often be found with a premium of nearer 5% but you need to shop around.

Proofs in FDC condition are truly stunning compared to regular bullion with extremely sharp definitions and a contrasting cameo but they have to be handled very carefully and NEVER with bare fingers.

[Roy]

2 minutes ago, ilovesilverireallydo said:

Sorry to burst your bubble guys, but there are quite a few FAKE proof sovereigns. These buggers can manufacture any year you want if you specify them. 

 

 

Obviously fake. 

[kimchi]

1 minute ago, Roy said:

Obviously fake. 

Yes but my ex won't know that, might save me £400 a month in maintenance

[Kman]

39 minutes ago, ilovesilverireallydo said:

Sorry to burst your bubble guys, but there are quite a few FAKE proof sovereigns. These buggers can manufacture any year you want if you specify them. 

I mean there's fakes and there's fakes

If it's not a remotely believable fake there's not really a problem 

I think those are the sort of replicas people put on top of blurry "loft find" pictures on Ebay 

[KevinOmega]

34 minutes ago, Pete said:

I have proof sovereigns with boxes and COAs and also without.
In my experience you tend to get lower prices than expected when selling and it's really the luck of timing catching buyers.

Don't be fooled by the huge margins shown by most of our main coin sellers.
Some of these will be double the price, so if you come to sell then you would hope to recover your cost but generally speaking I find common proofs selling at around 10% over bullion.
The main dealers will only pay spot.

Rule of thumb - don't pay more than 15% premium and try for less.
Proofs that do not have a box and COA can often be found with a premium of nearer 5% but you need to shop around.

Proofs in FDC condition are truly stunning compared to regular bullion with extremely sharp definitions and a contrasting cameo but they have to be handled very carefully and NEVER with bare fingers.

Wow... Lots of feedback... and proves how enthusiastic this forum is

Mostly confirming what my research and gut feel is telling me.

Part of the reason I stuck with bullion sovereigns last time was because I couldn't afford 'the perfect example' , and that meticulous part of me,  wants things to be 'just so'.

It's the same with watches, the box and certificates impact the price quite dramatically .. it gives the provenance.

The whole 'grading' thing seems to have really took off...but does that recreate the integrity in a coin?

Looking at the results members have had from grading  it certainly appears so.

 

[ilovesilverireallydo]

42 minutes ago, Roy said:

My proofs are in a box too.... Stack 'em high! i 

 

Out of interest Roy - your proofs - do you tr and collect pristine coins or do you sort out proofs from Bullion purchases? i had a 1990 proof - with light scratches - I thought I would still achieve a decent sell price, but didnt sell on the forum, will most likely try ebay next. 

[Roy]

Both! I have pristine coins with Coas in boxes (many unopened so fingers crossed there) and loose proof coins that I bought as bullion.

[kimchi]

16 minutes ago, KevinOmega said:

Part of the reason I stuck with bullion sovereigns last time was because I couldn't afford 'the perfect example' , and that meticulous part of me,  wants things to be 'just so'.

...

The whole 'grading' thing seems to have really took off...but does that recreate the integrity in a coin?

...

If you have coin OCD you will fit in just fine here!

I would say that grading has really taken off on the forum here so far, certainly it's exploded in my relatively short time as a member, but that it's not indicative of the general UK market (though things may well swing that way in future). Personally I've been met by bewildered gazes by some long-term dealers and long silences on the phone from some big companies here when I mention the grade of a coin, or that I intend to have it graded, before usually being told 'that's a US collector thing'. I think probably this forum is at the edge of things here and that may change quickly, it'll be interesting to see what happens!

I think with a missing CoA and box it does absolutely restore (guarantee) the authenticity and condition of a coin - passing just one fake would substantially undermine the grading companies, so I presume that the content is the first thing checked, and before the graders even see them.

At the same time without a CoA and/or box I can see a more limited market if you sell, and (rightly or wrongly) it'll likely be something that is used to beat you down on price to some extent.

All imvho

[Seasider]

I was recently told by someone at Spinks that they are increasingly advising people who want to put coins into their auctions to get them graded.  He said it is not just the US but also the Far East which likes the comfort of the authentication.

[Xander]

Would it be a smart move to keep the box and COA after NGC grading?

[kimchi]

6 minutes ago, Xander said:

Would it be a smart move to keep the box and COA after NGC grading?

Yes of course, why would you dispose of them?

[Xander]

4 minutes ago, kimchi said:

Yes of course, why would you dispose of them?

I saw some boxes on eBay for sale last year and thought they may be from graded coins. Personally, I would keep mine Just wondering What you guys thought.

[kimchi]

18 minutes ago, Xander said:

I saw some boxes on eBay for sale last year and thought they may be from graded coins. Personally, I would keep mine Just wondering What you guys thought.

Good point! I would guess that the slabbed coins had already been sold at a price the seller was happy with, so they just 'mopped up' selling the boxes for a bit more at the end. Not really comparable so I could be wrong, but I used to do the same with old videogame consoles and accessories, because they were worth a bit more sold separately than together. For some rare parts actually a mint condition box was worth as much alone as the hardware.

I haven't checked if it's milked yet, but if it has I have one famous 'spotter' silver proof that the very desirable CoA number will probably make more on than the coin! 

Other than that, selling CoAs and boxes while you still have the graded coin in hand seems a bit silly to me (unless you really need the cash and can make a good bit on them while still keeping hold of the graded coin).