Mcgrimes

38 minutes ago, Faiz said:

The whole point of fiat is so that it can be debased. Printed to oblivion. Doesn’t sound like a store of value to me. We went from a gold money system, to a gold-backed fiat system, to a completely fiat system. All world currencies are backed by nothing. It’s just the confidence of the end user that allows this system to continue. One should think, why was gold and silver systematically removed from the money equation. The answer is quite obvious really. 

Don’t forget that before gold, we also used salt and farm animals as a currency. 
An obvious demonstration for currency being a store of value is that you can sell a gold sovereign today, and buy it back again next week. There may be a price fluctuation either way, but there’s a clear store of value over the period, unless you disagree.

For whatever reason you guys hold gold, keep stacking! Just don’t expect to be using it as a currency anytime soon as it’s impractical to do so.

 As a real point of contention, do you see Bitcoin as a store of value?

20 minutes ago, dicker said:

I think the differentiation is that Gold is intrinsically a non interest bearing / dividend bearing asset.  It also does not permit the holder any rights (ability to vote on the direction or a company etc)   

Therefore it stores value and nothing else.  

Just my thoughts!

Best

Dicker

Completely agree, apart from the fact it looks petty as well!

26 minutes ago, Happypanda88 said:

The USD being accepted globally does not imply that it is a store of value, especially when it is worth only 2% from a hundred plus years ago.

No fiat currencies in my book are a store of value.

 

You’re entitled to your opinion, but by definition, a currency is a store of value, irrespective of its efficiency over a given time frame.

20 minutes ago, Happypanda88 said:

Can you name one  ? 

 

USD - it’s accepted globally and isn’t even backed by anything! 

3 hours ago, Happypanda88 said:

This is highly debatable what you have stated.

Weren't General Motors and Lehman Brothers the so called "blue chip" stocks back in 2008 ? Or Marconi before the dot-com bubble ?  Had shareholders of these companies invested long term a few years earlier, then what would they get in return after the markets crashed ?

Yes, they filed for bankruptcy and investors got burnt. So not much of a store of value in these "blue chip" companies for investors then. 

I have never viewed the Pound (nor any world currencies) as a store of value and I tell you why. They all lose their purchasing power over a period of time and eventually goes to zero. This is because a piece of paper backed by nothing has an intrinsic value of zero !

In the well known case like Germany back in 1920's, the German Mark hyper-inflated away. A man with 500,000 marks thought he had enough to retire on but sadly found it was only enough for a train fare home a few years later ! 

I could talk a lot more about the Chinese yuan back in the 1930's or in recent years the Argentinian Pesos, Turkish Lira, Zimbabwean Dollar. The list goes on.  Fiat currencies to me are not assets.

You can add me to the list of zealots on this forum.😎

Yes, I do view PMs (along with farmland) as the true store of value. All of them have stood the test of time !

Haha, but you’re a nice zealot - we all have our passions!

By very definition, a reputable currency is a store of value (to remove opinion from the equation).

 The efficiency on each store of value clearly varies over differing time frames; and it’s too easy to cherry pick to make a point. 
Worth noting that the downside with gold is loss of investment growth (beating inflation), and it’s a relatively illiquid asset with storage costs and high buy/sell spreads.

 Pick your assets for your investment timeframe - given the rising interest rates, I’d rather avoid a 6% mortgage than hold gold that yield nothing

2 hours ago, carrigher82 said:

So I hear it said constantly that unlike other assets or currencies, Gold in particular is a store of value. Please explain this concept to me because when I look back at the price charts Gold has had periods where its halved in value? Its price fluctuates doesn't it like any other asset? If I load up £100k today at £1450 an ounce and it drops to £1000 per ounce then its lost almost a third of its value right? Is it because it maybe isn't as volatile as some stocks? 

I want it to be a store of value btw so I'm not being negative on the metal, I love it but I'm not sure i get this mantra of store of value 

A store of value is literally just that - something of value that is stored. 
Your house is a store of value, your bonds are a store of value, your blue chip stocks are a store of value, your pound notes are a store of value…. They’re assets.

There are some zealots that will argue that only PMs are true stores of value, because they want and need to you believe the same.

The relative value of each asset will vary. The benchmark is performance against inflation, but everything experiences volatility based on supply and demand.

Currency is a great store of value in the short term, but is eroded by inflation if left under your bed. 

5 hours ago, modofantasma said:

Maybe they didn't? Maybe they were tipped off 

If they were tipped off, then they knew.

3 hours ago, apachebleu said:

 Can't help but think if you walk about wearing that sort of thing you are advertising yourself to thieves. 

My point is, why would you post everything that got stolen in a newspaper? I assume it’s all covered by insurance. 
How did the burglars know that stuff would be there in the first place? This stuff is usually well hidden

Those bars look like novelty items. I wouldn’t be airing the fact that I store bullion at home home if I did get burgled.

 Can’t help but have my suspicions

Just now, Mcgrimes said:

Gold lost 5% of its value in the past 6 months; just because something can lose value, doesn’t mean it isn’t a store of value.

You also ignore the growth potential of fiat investments; 10k invested in the ftse 100 (with reinvestment of dividends) in 1987 would have 10x its value in 30 years according to HL. Though it’s easy to cherry pick dates to prove a point, I don’t know what the equivalent would be for a sum of money to be invested in 1913, I’ll let you look.

Gold is also comparatively illiquid and suffers from fairly high spreads compared to other stores of value.

To be clear, my previous question was sarcastic, I do see metals as stores of value.

 

54 minutes ago, honestinjun said:

Man I'm glad I don't have you as a financial adviser. Gold is a store of value because it is not subject to the inflationary pressures that fiat currencies are. Since 1913, the US dollar has lost 96% of its value. Over the last 20 years, inflation in the US has eaten away 57% of the dollar's purchasing power. Compare that to gold.

Gold lost 5% of its value in the past 6 months; just because something can lose value, doesn’t mean it isn’t a store of value.

You also ignore the growth potential of fiat investments; 10k invested in the ftse 100 (with reinvestment of dividends) in 1987 would have 10x its value in 30 years according to HL. Though it’s easy to cherry pick dates to prove a point, I don’t know what the equivalent would be for a sum of money to be invested in 1913, I’ll let you look.

Gold is also comparatively illiquid and suffers from fairly high spreads compared to other stores of value.

To be clear, my previous question was sarcastic, I do see metals as stores of value.

1 hour ago, honestinjun said:

How can the USD, or any other fiat, be a store of value when it is backed by absolutely nothing and can be printed ad infinitum?

How can a metal with very limited industrial use that can be mined from the ground be used as a store of value?

Money is a store of value, because you can use it to procure products at a later stage. I’d argue currency was created with store of value being one of its prime purposes.

Money can be printed (inflated), but so can gold by way of increasing supply. Granted, money is easier to inflate on a larger and more readily available scale.

But scarcity doesn’t necessitate value.

On 11/12/2022 at 11:23, honestinjun said:

As I mentioned in an earlier post there is a massive disconnect between the 'spot' price and physical gold - coins in particular - they may as well be two different entities.

Waiting for the spot to drop in order to pick up some bargain bullion is a fools game. Any physical (coins in particular) that comes near spot is getting grabbed. Why? Because peopled are cottoning on to the worthless fiat currency (not money) that we are awash with. Physical gold/property is the only real store of value. Make of that what you will.

As much as I like gold and silver, which is plenty, it’s even less useful than jewellery, which by design is intended to be displayed.

Therefore, it’s perception of physical store of value is dependent on like minded people sharing this common mindset, which is less than those that see the same use in the USD, a significantly more liquid type of store of value.

I suppose my point is that it isn’t one of two stores of value, but in actual fact, a fairly inefficient one

Gents

Just to update, the brown spot was instantly removed with a flick of the flame from my butane jewellers torch. I’ve posted a picture of the same bar originally done so, but with said spot removed

Thanks for the advice

2 hours ago, Apmex100 said:

I can’t be bothered arguing with you so you  win 🥇 

That’ll teach you a lesson for posting about a recent price drop and getting excited🥴

3 hours ago, sixgun said:

The OP is buying in GBP, as the majority here do - looking at prices in dollars would be misleading for him.
Personally i mostly buy in USD but that is on the Kinesis exchange.

Having some dollar holdings really changes the perspective on the GBP price movement of gold doesnt it!

1 hour ago, sixgun said:

Here is the 10 year price chart for gold in GBP -

As we can see the price hasn't tanked, agreed it hasn't been this low since the middle of July 2022 but do not confuse spot price with the price of coins at dealers. i took a look at Goldsilver.be last night to see what was available - there is relatively little available for immediate delivery. i have heard and seen from several sources that premiums on silver coins in the US are as high as they have ever been and yet the spot price is falling. When stock is generally short you will not see retail prices reflect spot.

i almost think you are trying to big up the products of Tavex.

Maybe worth looking at the price in dollars

8 minutes ago, SilverPlatinum said:

I personally do not recommend cleaning the bars (or any coin).

We know those are copper spots because the purity is not 100%.

If you do not like them anymore then you can sell them and buy different gold coins/bars.

 

I was concerned of fakes or manufacturing errors! I’m going to heat one up as recommended and see what the results are

2 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

This sounds more like a problem with expectation.

You paid a lot of money for them, so you expect them to be "perfect". If you were not happy with the certicard packaging, then it would have made sense to query this with Bairds ar the time. Some trade-off is understandable because you bought some of the cheapest 1 gram bars around, you say; although these is no guarantee that paying a higher premium would have got you better packaging.

You did not mention what percentage premium you paid. Do you know?

I also wonder why you bought many 1 gram bars when you would have got a lower premium on a smaller quantity of bigger bars.

I make the asumption that you bought them as an investment. It might be worth you reading this:

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/advice-guide-for-uk-bullion-investors/1041

Buying packaged bars also means you would have paid a higher premium than "naked" bars. If you wanted them as gift items, this might be worthwhile.

I don;t understand what you mean by "generally low quality."

There is no reason to doubt the quality / fineness of the gold. It is difficult to tell from your photos, but if they are marked 9999, then they will be 99.99% fine gold.

The discolouration is the well -known, perhaps infamous "red spot", and yes this can even affect 99999 or 99.999% fine gold.

Here is more reading:

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/red-spots-gold-coins/775

But that page was originally written with 900 or 916 gold in mind.

There are also many other websites, and YouTube videos discussing it, including at least 2 TSF topics:

and

Any of which may help.

It is easy to remove red spot on fine gold (99.9+%), just heat it to red heat, then let it cool. This works almost every time, although I have experienced very stubborn red spots on at least one occasion. Of course, it is better to remove them from the cards to do this.

If none of the above helps, then remember nothing is ever perfect, including life.

And... whatever we are going through is probably much better than most Ukranians are going through.

Bairds are a competitor of ours, but I have no reason to doubt them, which is more than I could say about some of our competitors.

😎

I disagree with a lot of what you said. I didn’t elaborate on the delivery being to the wrong address, which I was displeased with. I didn’t expect them to be carded, I was happy for them to be loose. But the quality of the carding is poor. But surplus to requirements why I kept them.

I didn’t expect them to be ‘perfect’, but they’re not as good quality as the other Baird products I have purchased, I’ve never had this staining on any other product before. That’s the main concern here.

I don’t recall the premium, but I was happy with the price I paid. But the premium was higher than on the 2.5g, 5g, half ounce bars, which all display better quality 
I bought 1g bars because I wanted to. That’s the only reason. 
Low quality referring to the quality of the card, which isn’t as good as the other Baird products. The detail on the bars and subsequent  discolouration is, to me, of low quality.

appreciate the notes on the red spots. I’ve got a jewellers torch which will get it up to temperature, I’ll let you know how I get on!

Otherwise, been happy with previous purchases of 1g gold bars. As I say, I’ve never seen red spots before and my first thought was ‘fake’ - not that I’d suggest there were any nefarious motives. I’ll remove reference to the supplier as to not cause concern, generally

2 hours ago, dicker said:

Yes I have seen this before on coins (copper marks).

I have bought coins from Baird before with no issues.

Whilst I think it’s poor to present a “bar” upside down, it’s just bullion.

 

 

 

Did some Googling and happy if this is just copper, I might follow the advice to heating to red hot, more out of interest than anything. 
Id say it’s sloppy packaging, but given its low price I do consider bullion and did so at the time.

The cards are low quality compared to others. I didn’t expect them carded

About 2.5 years ago, I bought a not insignificant number of golds bars from a supplier. I wasn’t happy with the delivery, generally, as the certicards were low quality (easy to open, marked, stressed around corners turning white). In all cases, I kept them as they were reasonably priced compared to other dealers, and it was the height of covid.

Ive still got most of these bars of gold, and today I got my collection out for inspection/inventory and noticed some discolouration on the bars. I don’t recall this being present about a year ago.

The first picture shows a carded bar, where the bar was inserted upside down, with a small discolouration mark near the 1g. The second pictures shows a different bar with a slight discolouration on the reverse. I have a few bars like this, all 1g bars, with discolouration and generally low quality. 

Ever see this before?

If these weren’t straight from such reputable supplier, I’d never of accepted in the first place.

5 minutes ago, sixgun said:

Gold was £1308 on 25th October 2021 - it is now £1,467. That's an increase of £159 which is a 12.2% increase over the year. As i said RPI stands at 12.6% - so gold has preserved purchasing power just about. Holding cash and you've lost 12.6% of purchasing power.
This is the true annual rate - you can pick points in time to make your case because you want to make a particular case.

Kinesis uses the blockchain ledger to record ownership of gold and they call these KAU's. No they aren't gold, they are the blockchain entries of your ownership.
You look at your bank account - it might say £1500.25. This is a digital record of your claim on currency at your bank. It isn't your currency, it's the bank's currency but it is a record of your claim. Everything these days has gone digital. This is an argument made against precious metals, that they are impractical - you can't go to Tesco's with a sovereign and spend it. This is true, the cashier won't take the sovereign despite it being legal tender. When gold and silver are put on blockchain rails you can do that. You can spend fractions of that 'sovereign' in multiple currencies.

The KAU's do not receive a yield because of risk. They receive a yield because you took part in the Kinesis Money System. The transaction fees are added together for the month and divided between several yields. Kinesis keeps some to run the system and develop it. The rest goes to the users and KVT holders.

The holders' yield for KAU and KAG, the minters' yield for KAU and KAG, the velocity yield for those trading KAU and KAG, the refers; yield and a few other. Then there is the KVT yield which hasn't paid out yet but is accruing. i'm not saying what my yields are to date other than it adds up to several ounces of gold and even more in silver.

i haven't considered Nexo or anything else - i don't like cryptos except i have managed to deal with Kinesis having been with it since the very beginning, in fact before the very beginning. i am not trialling the virtual debit card - that would be on my phone and i don't like mobiles and would not really trust myself. i like to have a plastic card so i will wait.

I have a feeling that with increased adoption of the debit card, transaction fees across the platform will begin to increase to cover the fiat cost of doing business with plastic cards. Fee free transactions don’t exist, and you may have heard about the drama with crypto.com cards and subsequent reduction of card perks. It’s happened with a few other providers.

 But still, my point remains - bearish near term!

13 minutes ago, ant1882 said:

$USD (DXY) has been in a big uptrend since May 2021, because it's measured against other basket-case currencies which are failing (being inflated) at a faster rate (Euro, GBP, YEN).

Question is what will make the dollar drop? Currently at 111 with historical high of 120 in 2000/2001 and 160 in 1985.

It’s all relative - so better fiscal policies like rising rates and would help other countries. But then, weaker currency actually increases foreign investment etc etc

1 minute ago, ant1882 said:

Oh you mean in $USD, yeah not far off 20%

Shame we don't have that discount here in the UK I'd be buying more 🙂

Haha yeah, gold has been weak lately, but we don’t get the benefit because the pound is also weak!

 Bring on the bear market, I want more gold!

4 minutes ago, ant1882 said:

How has gold lost 20%?

£GBP is -16% YTD against $USD

But gold has dropped from $2000 in March to $1650 today - that’s nearly 20%