Have I got it about right?

[danieldorkins]

As I have too much time on my hands due to a broken leg, I thought I would call on the great and good of this forum for your opinions, having dabbled a bit in silver since 2015 and finding myself with a lump sum to invest in 2022 I decided to have a go with gold, the aim really is to preserve this lump sum and hopefully pass it on to the next generation but if needs arise, liquidate some of it.

Prior to discovering and learning from TSF I had a period of time in the wilderness buying from dealers and was steered in the direction of "collectibles" ie graded coins and sets, so the best decisions may have not been made, however, I am not particularly worried on that point, what I would appreciate is your thoughts on the percentages below, bearing in mind that I am unlikely to have much more than small change to buy in the future, so would it be better to shift around the percentages.

 

Percentage of my "stash"  at cost is:

(silver is 6.5%, I am not including the silver as it is buying what I like, some high premiums)

gold, individual coins, 93.5%

Bullion (mostly sovs) is 34%

BU and proof is 15%

graded is 4%

Graded sets 44.5%

Would you balance this differently given the stacking and collecting reasons above?

 

Edited January 6 by danieldorkins

[JamesH]

Interesting topic. In terms of my own collection and basing the breakdown on nothing more than cost I’m as follows:-

Gold bullion coins 67%
Gold graded coins 30%
Silver (mix of stuff) 3%
 

[iacabu]

Bullion gold/silver - 10%

Random premium bits that were impulse purchases - 90%

[Stuntman]

@danieldorkins - with a percentage split like that I would perhaps be tempted to liquidate some of your graded sets if and when the market for the particular sets is strong.  Or if adding to your stash, up the bullion percentage.  

But you've got a nice diverse mix going on there, which could prove pretty smart if the market for the graded sets moves in your favour.  It's probably more risky than bullion though.

My own physical stash is about 5% silver, 10% platinum, 10% gold brilliant uncirculated and 75% gold bullion. 

My precious metals ETFs are currently about 35% gold, 35% silver and 30% platinum.

[dicker]

It’s an interesting one and there is definitely no right or wrong.

Personally I have chosen to have very little gold in proof or proof sets - various reasons for this.  Sovs and Brits all the way.

If I could buy silver with no VAT, I would be looking to shift some Gd to silver after the next down leg of Silver price.  Personally I think it will go down a bit before it shifts significantly higher.

 

[danieldorkins]

12 hours ago, Stuntman said:

@danieldorkins - with a percentage split like that I would perhaps be tempted to liquidate some of your graded sets if and when the market for the particular sets is strong.  Or if adding to your stash, up the bullion percentage.  

But you've got a nice diverse mix going on there, which could prove pretty smart if the market for the graded sets moves in your favour.  It's probably more risky than bullion though.

My own physical stash is about 5% silver, 10% platinum, 10% gold brilliant uncirculated and 75% gold bullion. 

My precious metals ETFs are currently about 35% gold, 35% silver and 30% platinum.

Your first paragraph has hit the nail on the head and is the bit I have been pondering, I am tempted, they were relatively expensive and tie up quite a bit of cash for not so much actual gold, I like the sets and the original thinking was even if there was no great increase in value to me they maybe to the next generation but that only really works if they have the interest and are prepared to collect or sell properly, at the moment I suspect they may up at Cash Converters because it would be easier!

If I cashed them in I could then go on another spending spree!

[stefffana]

I try to keep in my stack gold and silver at 50%-50% value. 

To be able to buy high premium silver, I compensate with silver flatware under spot, so my average price on silver look very healthy.

[Agaupl]

Your age and amount you may need to liquidate will have a big impact and your appetite for volatility. Higher risks plays won’t be such a risk over 30 years as it would over 5 for example. Silver, platinum, proofs being the more volatile but higher upside. Low premium bullion being more stable. There is no one size fits all answer. 
not sure I understand your figures either. 4% graded but 45% graded sets? Is this 45% of 4%? Etc. 

[AaaGee]

Im kind of done with silver. Bought loads and sold at a loss.

Do love a proof set though so will concentrate on that as far as silver goes. May get my money back as im not selling up for 10 to 15 years hopefully.

Will concentrate on gold from here on in.

So far 13 sovs and almost 2oz of the fine stuff.

[danieldorkins]

2 hours ago, stefffana said:

I try to keep in my stack gold and silver at 50%-50% value. 

To be able to buy high premium silver, I compensate with silver flatware under spot, so my average price on silver look very healthy.

Good thinking, I tend not to buy silver bullion atm, at first I bought Brits and Maples but now I cannot resist certain designs such as the Mythical forest set and its easier (on the wallet) to buy than gold.

2 hours ago, Agaupl said:

Your age and amount you may need to liquidate will have a big impact and your appetite for volatility. Higher risks plays won’t be such a risk over 30 years as it would over 5 for example. Silver, platinum, proofs being the more volatile but higher upside. Low premium bullion being more stable. There is no one size fits all answer. 
not sure I understand your figures either. 4% graded but 45% graded sets? Is this 45% of 4%? Etc. 

Sorry, bit misleading, the 4% are random individual coins, the 45% refer to coins that have been graded but originated as sets (not graded by me, should probably classify them as individual coins) and sovereign sets as bought from RM 

I shouldn't need to liquidate but you never know and I like the security of having some just in case, allocated the sovs for this.

1 hour ago, AaaGee said:

Im kind of done with silver. Bought loads and sold at a loss.

Do love a proof set though so will concentrate on that as far as silver goes. May get my money back as im not selling up for 10 to 15 years hopefully.

Will concentrate on gold from here on in.

So far 13 sovs and almost 2oz of the fine stuff.

I bought the small amount of silver around 2015 so its been ok, silver now does not give me the confidence hence turning more to gold but it is easier to buy nice silver!, even as a kid it appealed, gold? just too expensive and a bit flash!

 

Edited January 7 by danieldorkins

[AaaGee]

I'll buy a 2024 silver proof oz or maybe the 4 coin set but thats it. 

I wont even buy any bullion silver brits this year. Unless he falls off his pirch this year, they'll be worth spot next year.

Also wondering what direction to take with sovereigns at the moment. Go <2023 or go 2024> thankfully got loads of time to think about that dilema lol

[Agaupl]

I’d probably split your stack three ways 

gold 

silver 

plat (if any) 

then split proof from there. Trouble being in normal times some proof will be worth alot more than bullion, other proof will be worth just bullion. It’s very dependent on which proof coin. ATM all proof seems depressed, but it’s volatile. so for example 10oz of proof doesnt mean much, coin to coin varies hugely. So price individually. 

Remember in the uk you pay tax on silver and platinum so that’s a big margin to overcome. 
 

Age/risk appetite/time= your optimal balance 
 

 

 

[Agaupl]

12 minutes ago, AaaGee said:

I'll buy a 2024 silver proof oz or maybe the 4 coin set but thats it. 

I wont even buy any bullion silver brits this year. Unless he falls off his pirch this year, they'll be worth spot next year.

Also wondering what direction to take with sovereigns at the moment. Go <2023 or go 2024> thankfully got loads of time to think about that dilema lol

2023 every day 

[stefffana]

3 hours ago, dicker said:

It’s an interesting one and there is definitely no right or wrong.

Personally I have chosen to have very little gold in proof or proof sets - various reasons for this.  Sovs and Brits all the way.

If I could buy silver with no VAT, I would be looking to shift some Gd to silver after the next down leg of Silver price.  Personally I think it will go down a bit before it shifts significantly higher.

I am sure you can swap on forum some regular sovereigns for regular bullion silver coins. 

The price of silver on forum now is acceptable in my opinion.🤗

 

 

[danieldorkins]

1 hour ago, Agaupl said:

I’d probably split your stack three ways 

gold 

silver 

plat (if any) 

then split proof from there. Trouble being in normal times some proof will be worth alot more than bullion, other proof will be worth just bullion. It’s very dependent on which proof coin. ATM all proof seems depressed, but it’s volatile. so for example 10oz of proof doesnt mean much, coin to coin varies hugely. So price individually. 

Remember in the uk you pay tax on silver and platinum so that’s a big margin to overcome. 
 

Age/risk appetite/time= your optimal balance 
 

 

 

Platinum? interesting not a metal that I have had anything to do with and know little about it, ok its a more valuable metal than gold but doesn't seem to have the attraction amongst stackers and collectors so that would indicate it's more difficult to buy and sell, maybe that's changing, recommended or not to add to my stack and why?

[stefffana]

31 minutes ago, danieldorkins said:

Platinum? interesting not a metal that I have had anything to do with and know little about it, ok its a more valuable metal than gold but doesn't seem to have the attraction amongst stackers and collectors so that would indicate it's more difficult to buy and sell, maybe that's changing, recommended or not to add to my stack and why?

The price per oz was indeed higher than gold while ago. Now it is under £800/oz.

It is not popular for stacking because VAT and the high level of unpredictability, with bigger fluctuations in price than gold. The same reasons are for palladium.

See a chart for platinum for last 15yrs.

 

Edited January 7 by stefffana

[cjbcomm]

Interesting topic.

I keep coins mostly for wealth retention so mostly bullion.

Would say 90% gold 10% silver by value at least.

Most of the gold is sovereigns and multiples thereof. A few proof sets ex RM but only from the secondary market and when premiums are not too high.

Silver mainly brits and buy MINTY's and 2nd hand to avoid the VAT.

DO have a few commemorative silver coins to satisfy the collector in me (Beast's etc.). While premiums are higher the values are relatively small so not a big issue in the grand scheme of things.

Only got one graded coin and only picked that up as a PF70 sov at an auction that wasn't much of a premium if at all.

Each to their own and depends on the goals of the collection / stack.

I find graded a bit of a mystery around pricing so stick to bullion 😅

[StackToCollect]

On 06/01/2024 at 16:00, danieldorkins said:

As I have too much time on my hands due to a broken leg, I thought I would call on the great and good of this forum for your opinions, having dabbled a bit in silver since 2015 and finding myself with a lump sum to invest in 2022 I decided to have a go with gold, the aim really is to preserve this lump sum and hopefully pass it on to the next generation but if needs arise, liquidate some of it.

Prior to discovering and learning from TSF I had a period of time in the wilderness buying from dealers and was steered in the direction of "collectibles" ie graded coins and sets, so the best decisions may have not been made, however, I am not particularly worried on that point, what I would appreciate is your thoughts on the percentages below, bearing in mind that I am unlikely to have much more than small change to buy in the future, so would it be better to shift around the percentages.

 

Percentage of my "stash"  at cost is:

(silver is 6.5%, I am not including the silver as it is buying what I like, some high premiums)

gold, individual coins, 93.5%

Bullion (mostly sovs) is 34%

BU and proof is 15%

graded is 4%

Graded sets 44.5%

Would you balance this differently given the stacking and collecting reasons above?

 

As someone else said previously, there's no right or wrong answer, it's down to personal preference and your goals.

I've always felt that gold bullion is the main thing for me. This is because the premiums are quite tight compared to everything else you've listed, and therefore I should be able to always get a reasonable return on it at any time. I will only pick up silver when I can get a good deal on second hand from a dealer. 

My issue with collectibles is that, as pretty and enticing as they are (and boy do they tempt me a lot!), I perceive them to be a very different type of investment as they are worth what the highest bidder is willing to offer when you want (or quite possibly need to sell them. I feel this is a point that isn't always considered. If you have a sudden mishap and need cash urgently, you might not make money on the bullion you sell but you should at least be guaranteed a fair price for it. But if you're forced to sell an obscure graded coin, you might not be able to sell it unless you discount it significantly. 

I'm also a little wary of you saying you bought from dealers and were "steered in the direction of collectibles". In my experience, any dealer that is steering you to collectibles is trying to rip you off. Your average dealer might make £30-£50 on a 1oz bullion coin, but is probably making £300 off a graded one so it's a good investment - for them! They often won't even buy them back and you're left in the situation I described above - forced to sell it at a discount unless you are fortunate enough to find a collector desperate for that particular coin. Some of them also charge obscene prices - I once saw 1 dealer selling a set for £20,000 that another had listed for £8,000! If I've interpreted your post correctly, you may want to double check the going rate for the graded coins you bought and compare that to your purchase price.

Having said all that, there probably is more potential profit in collectibles, so I wouldn't discount them entirely but my preferred portfolio would be mainly gold bullion.

 

Tl,dr: I like gold bullion because it has low premiums and has a universally agreed value whereas collectibles have a very subjective value and I perceive that value as being harder to recoup.

[danieldorkins]

3 hours ago, StackToCollect said:

As someone else said previously, there's no right or wrong answer, it's down to personal preference and your goals.

I've always felt that gold bullion is the main thing for me. This is because the premiums are quite tight compared to everything else you've listed, and therefore I should be able to always get a reasonable return on it at any time. I will only pick up silver when I can get a good deal on second hand from a dealer. 

My issue with collectibles is that, as pretty and enticing as they are (and boy do they tempt me a lot!), I perceive them to be a very different type of investment as they are worth what the highest bidder is willing to offer when you want (or quite possibly need to sell them. I feel this is a point that isn't always considered. If you have a sudden mishap and need cash urgently, you might not make money on the bullion you sell but you should at least be guaranteed a fair price for it. But if you're forced to sell an obscure graded coin, you might not be able to sell it unless you discount it significantly. 

I'm also a little wary of you saying you bought from dealers and were "steered in the direction of collectibles". In my experience, any dealer that is steering you to collectibles is trying to rip you off. Your average dealer might make £30-£50 on a 1oz bullion coin, but is probably making £300 off a graded one so it's a good investment - for them! They often won't even buy them back and you're left in the situation I described above - forced to sell it at a discount unless you are fortunate enough to find a collector desperate for that particular coin. Some of them also charge obscene prices - I once saw 1 dealer selling a set for £20,000 that another had listed for £8,000! If I've interpreted your post correctly, you may want to double check the going rate for the graded coins you bought and compare that to your purchase price.

Having said all that, there probably is more potential profit in collectibles, so I wouldn't discount them entirely but my preferred portfolio would be mainly gold bullion.

 

Tl,dr: I like gold bullion because it has low premiums and has a universally agreed value whereas collectibles have a very subjective value and I perceive that value as being harder to recoup.

As I have a bit of time on my hands I have looked at this quite carefully and critically and I agree with pretty much all your comments. I started with no knowlege,  I made some inquiries and the dealers who replied were the ones pushing collectibles, graded coins etc and I had a lump of money burning a hole!, I haven't regretted the purchases and  yes, I paid high premiums but sincerely believe I was not ripped off.

the view then was to stash it away for the next generation, thoughts of "what if" did not enter my head, now I have had a couple of years and discovered TSF and given my situation a more considered approach, I have come to the conclusion that to concentrate on stacking bullion is now the best way forward, mainly because I can only add small amounts now so this rules out any expensive sets etc, however, I do enjoy the "pretty" and "collectible" ones (like a 69 graded 2021 gold completer that I have, just something about it!) the sets that I have I will just keep an eye on, I might be tempted to move on if the price is right and reinvest back into bullion, I like the sovs and there is plenty of scope within them to scratch the collecting itch! and I can buy them on the forum, I will keep some of the collectibles,  tho' not a gambling person its quite a buzz to have some coins that "could" do well, fingers crossed I shoudn't need to sell them in an emergency.

Edited January 13 by danieldorkins

[StackToCollect]

16 minutes ago, danieldorkins said:

As I have a bit of time on my hands I have looked at this quite carefully and critically and I agree with pretty much all your comments. I started with no knowlege,  I made some inquiries and the dealers who replied were the ones pushing collectibles, graded coins etc and I had a lump of money burning a hole!, I haven't regretted the purchases and  yes, I paid high premiums but sincerely believe I was not ripped off.

the view then was to stash it away for the next generation, thoughts of "what if" did not enter my head, now I have had a couple of years and discovered TSF and given my situation a more considered approach, I have come to the conclusion that to concentrate on stacking bullion is now the best way forward, mainly because I can only add small amounts now so this rules out any expensive sets etc, however, I do enjoy the "pretty" and "collectible" ones (like a 69 graded 2021 gold completer that I have, just something about it!) the sets that I have I will just keep an eye on, I might be tempted to move on if the price is right and reinvest back into bullion, I like the sovs and there is plenty of scope within them to scratch the collecting itch! and I can buy them on the forum, I will keep some of the collectibles,  tho' not a gambling person its quite a buzz to have some coins that "could" do well, fingers crossed I shoudn't need to sell them in an emergency.

Yeah, as I said at the start of my post, everyone is different and there's no right or wrong answers here. I guess I'm a bit skeptical about how much some of the recent RM bullion series are likely to be worth in a few years, even when graded, but they certainly won't be unsellable. I guess I see investing in physical bullion as fairly niche, and then investing in collectible gold and silver as a niche within that niche, hence my concerns about the market for it when reselling! 

I agree about the sovs for sure, there is so much history to them that you just don't have with any of the other series of coins currently being produced.

As long as you're happy with your purchases and strategy then that's the main thing!