Estonia or Norway VAT collection

[Nicolaw]

Hi all, i was planning on holidaying in Estonia or Norway and buying some silver whilst i was there to take advantage of the zero VAT rate on coins.... however i have just been looking through some threads and it seems that Estonia is no longer zero VAT on silver. does anyone know whether norway is still zero vat and if anyone has collected/bought it physically in the country? if so, did they just need to provide passport for ID? if so, as i am from UK does that mean they woudl have to charge VAt and therefore no point me buying there? sorry for all the questions... thanks for any replies !:)

[sixgun]

Yes Estonia now charges 20% VAT on silver however you will be exporting the silver out of Estonia. As such you should be able to reclaim the VAT at the airport or whatever system operates in Estonia. i know for example there is an VAT reclaims office at Alicante airport in Spain - i sat outside it once whilst waiting for a plane. You needed to provide all the bills with VAT invoices. You'd need to research this to see what you need to do in Estonia - you need to know this at the time you buy the goods at the shop. So it doesn't matter what the VAT level is, if you export the item it can be exported VAT free by reclaiming VAT and in some shops not paying it in the first place.
That it is 0% VAT in Norway doesn't matter - it is the same, just you don't need to reclaim the VAT.

The issue arises when you hit the UK border. If you declare the silver and you have above a certain amount then HMRC will want to charge you VAT. This would go for silver from any country being imported into the UK.

Pre-Brexit when the UK was in the EU and Estonia charged 0% VAT, you could buy the silver 0% VAT in Estonia and take it wherever you wanted inside the EU without paying any extra VAT. You had already paid the 0% VAT - i.e. 0.00€.
So for example i can buy silver coins from goldsilver.be and have them sent to Spain - there are no taxes charged - it is like the 'good old days'. However if i put a UK address to send the silver it might well get intercepted by HMRC at the border and it will have VAT and brokerage charges to pay. There is a workaround - i could have GS.be send the silver to Ireland, then i pick it up and take it into N. Ireland and i bring it into the UK as personal baggage. As you might imagine that is a costly exercise and only worthwhile if i brought in a lot of silver. Bringing a lot of silver might then alert HMRC as i came into the UK b/c i cannot bring the silver in commercially, only as a personal item.
You could buy silver VAT free in Guernsey except i think it is tricky to get the likes of GS.be to send to Guernsey. i know UK dealers will export to Guernsey VAT free. Then if you wanted to bring it into the UK there is the issue of HMRC at the border. i have never made this trip and i don't know what customs is like. You might be able to sneak it through but again you are taking a risk and it is smuggling. Making these trips and all the arrangements is going to be expensive - at the end of the day in the majority on occasions it just isn't worth the time and costs - plus it is smuggling.

So in summary the issue isn't about getting silver out of a country 0% VAT - if you know the system and have the correct paperwork, you can do that is perfectly legitimately for most countries i know. It is getting the silver into the UK 0% VAT. You can legitimately bring a bit in without VAT, - i forget how much it is, perhaps another member knows - you can do the N. Ireland route. But most times the process is costly and most times you are smuggling and taking a risk. 

i can buy silver at GS.be cheaper but it is stuck inside the EU. If you are not fussy and you keep your eyes open as a premium member on TSF you can get good priced silver. i pay very close attention to this sort of thing - i buy for UK and EU delivery. i would say 19 out of 20 times it isn't worth the hassle and certainly isn't worth getting caught out at customs.

Edited August 23, 2022 by sixgun

[Nicolaw]

Thank you very much for this information... i wasnt planning on buying a lot maybe a couple of grand but unsure now.... will need to research further. still going on holiday but unsure if need to declare.... £10k comes to mind for declaring but unsure regarding VAt. food for thougyht- such a shame the rules haveonly recently chnaged. presumably if i got the VAT back at the airport this documentation woudl notify the UK anyway so no point really. nevermind, will just have to enjoy the fjords and forests alone

 

Ill look in to the premium mmber comment,... only just jouined so bit skeptical to buy from randomers unless its paypal lke ebay.... will research it though- thank you. really appreciate you taking the time:)

[LemmyMcGregor]

On 23/08/2022 at 04:28, sixgun said:

Yes Estonia now charges 20% VAT on silver however you will be exporting the silver out of Estonia. As such you should be able to reclaim the VAT at the airport or whatever system operates in Estonia. i know for example there is an VAT reclaims office at Alicante airport in Spain - i sat outside it once whilst waiting for a plane. You needed to provide all the bills with VAT invoices. You'd need to research this to see what you need to do in Estonia - you need to know this at the time you buy the goods at the shop. So it doesn't matter what the VAT level is, if you export the item it can be exported VAT free by reclaiming VAT and in some shops not paying it in the first place.
That it is 0% VAT in Norway doesn't matter - it is the same, just you don't need to reclaim the VAT.

The issue arises when you hit the UK border. If you declare the silver and you have above a certain amount then HMRC will want to charge you VAT. This would go for silver from any country being imported into the UK.

Pre-Brexit when the UK was in the EU and Estonia charged 0% VAT, you could buy the silver 0% VAT in Estonia and take it wherever you wanted inside the EU without paying any extra VAT. You had already paid the 0% VAT - i.e. 0.00€.
So for example i can buy silver coins from goldsilver.be and have them sent to Spain - there are no taxes charged - it is like the 'good old days'. However if i put a UK address to send the silver it might well get intercepted by HMRC at the border and it will have VAT and brokerage charges to pay. There is a workaround - i could have GS.be send the silver to Ireland, then i pick it up and take it into N. Ireland and i bring it into the UK as personal baggage. As you might imagine that is a costly exercise and only worthwhile if i brought in a lot of silver. Bringing a lot of silver might then alert HMRC as i came into the UK b/c i cannot bring the silver in commercially, only as a personal item.
You could buy silver VAT free in Guernsey except i think it is tricky to get the likes of GS.be to send to Guernsey. i know UK dealers will export to Guernsey VAT free. Then if you wanted to bring it into the UK there is the issue of HMRC at the border. i have never made this trip and i don't know what customs is like. You might be able to sneak it through but again you are taking a risk and it is smuggling. Making these trips and all the arrangements is going to be expensive - at the end of the day in the majority on occasions it just isn't worth the time and costs - plus it is smuggling.

So in summary the issue isn't about getting silver out of a country 0% VAT - if you know the system and have the correct paperwork, you can do that is perfectly legitimately for most countries i know. It is getting the silver into the UK 0% VAT. You can legitimately bring a bit in without VAT, - i forget how much it is, perhaps another member knows - you can do the N. Ireland route. But most times the process is costly and most times you are smuggling and taking a risk. 

i can buy silver at GS.be cheaper but it is stuck inside the EU. If you are not fussy and you keep your eyes open as a premium member on TSF you can get good priced silver. i pay very close attention to this sort of thing - i buy for UK and EU delivery. i would say 19 out of 20 times it isn't worth the hassle and certainly isn't worth getting caught out at customs.

I remeber asking specifically about silver coins to HMRC and I was told that, up to 10k in value, there is no need to declare when entering the UK, so if he was to go to Norway to pick up some, up to 10k he'd be fine, since he is talking about silver I am assuming that he will go nowhere near the value, as that would mean flying with a monster box.

There is a thread somewhere, I should really save it for future refence...

 

edit: found

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by LemmyMcGregor

[sixgun]

7 minutes ago, LemmyMcGregor said:

I remeber asking specifically about silver coins to HMRC and I was told that, up to 10k in value, there is no need to declare when entering the UK, so if he was to go to Norway to pick up some, up to 10k he'd be fine, since he is talking about silver I am assuming that he will go nowhere near the value, as that would mean flying with a monster box.

There is a thread somewhere, I should really save it for future refence...

 

edit: found

 

i wonder if HMRC misunderstood what you were asking.
i suspect they thought you meant £10k in circulating currency - the cupro-nickel kind. 
i suspect if you tried to go through with 10 monster boxes of Britannias (5000 x £2 face value coins) there would be an issue.
Even if you tried to go through with one monster box (500 x £20 value per Britannia coin) there would be an issue.

[LemmyMcGregor]

21 minutes ago, sixgun said:

i wonder if HMRC misunderstood what you were asking.
i suspect they thought you meant £10k in circulating currency - the cupro-nickel kind. 
i suspect if you tried to go through with 10 monster boxes of Britannias (5000 x £2 face value coins) there would be an issue.
Even if you tried to go through with one monster box (500 x £20 value per Britannia coin) there would be an issue.

This was the email I sent, I clearly specified silver coins.

"I have recently started dabbling with precious metal as a collector, I do travel abroad once or twice a year and I will probably be looking at local traders while vacationing. For reference, in my specific case I will probably come back with maybe 1 or 2 ounces in silver coins from whatever country I might visit, value is likely going to be under £100 and we are discussing collection. I have had a look at Customs information and I couldn't find clear guidelines on the topic, I would appreciate if you could give me clear information regarding limits applied and whether I can walk through with nothing to declare or if I do need to declare even the small quantities described above."

By the way, I wouldn't want to say go ahead because I've asked and you're cool, merely reporting on what I have been offered myself, if in doubt, get in touch with them, nobody knows better, then print and if any problem is encountered it can be used on the spot.

EDIT: re-reading your answer, when I say value I mean REAL value, not face value.

Edited August 26, 2022 by LemmyMcGregor

[sixgun]

28 minutes ago, LemmyMcGregor said:

This was the email I sent, I clearly specified silver coins.

i see the HMRC response but not your email content. i doubt whoever wrote to you really realised you were saying silver Ag coins as opposed to silver coloured coins.

The legal definition of cash is legal tender - Britannias are legal tender - they have £2 on them. As cash, £10 000 is 10 monster boxes = 10 x 500 x £2. We have had these discussions before about paying someone in gold sovereigns as £1 coins, which is what they are as legal tender. The pirates wouldn't accept it - they would say this is silver not cash, even though the government put £2 on them and made them into a legal tender coins.

One or two silver coins - LOL - put them in a purse and put them in the X-ray tray - they will go through and no-one will bat an eyelid, they are looking for drugs and weapons. The issue would be getting £10k of face value Britannias through - that is 5000 oz (over 150kg of silver) - no way are you going to swing that. If you come back in a car maybe - make it a Toyota Land Cruiser or a Range Rover.

Edited August 26, 2022 by sixgun

[LemmyMcGregor]

12 minutes ago, sixgun said:

i see the HMRC response but not your email content.

↓↓↓

35 minutes ago, LemmyMcGregor said:

This was the email I sent, I clearly specified silver coins.

"I have recently started dabbling with precious metal as a collector, I do travel abroad once or twice a year and I will probably be looking at local traders while vacationing. For reference, in my specific case I will probably come back with maybe 1 or 2 ounces in silver coins from whatever country I might visit, value is likely going to be under £100 and we are discussing collection. I have had a look at Customs information and I couldn't find clear guidelines on the topic, I would appreciate if you could give me clear information regarding limits applied and whether I can walk through with nothing to declare or if I do need to declare even the small quantities described above."

Making it more obvious.

I have opened with "I have recently started dabbling with precious metal as a collector" as I wanted to ensure that, whoever read past the introduction, knew that I was talking about silver or gold coins, as opposed to cupro-nickel, and I clearly stated silver later on.

I wouldn't discount the possibility that we could be dealing with a moron, still, I would give them the benefit of the doubt.

[LawrenceChard]

On 22/08/2022 at 21:10, Nicolaw said:

Hi all, i was planning on holidaying in Estonia or Norway and buying some silver whilst i was there to take advantage of the zero VAT rate on coins.... however i have just been looking through some threads and it seems that Estonia is no longer zero VAT on silver. does anyone know whether norway is still zero vat and if anyone has collected/bought it physically in the country? if so, did they just need to provide passport for ID? if so, as i am from UK does that mean they woudl have to charge VAt and therefore no point me buying there? sorry for all the questions... thanks for any replies !:)

Having successfully exported silver coins to Norway on a number of occasions, including two involving personal physical delivery, I can say that it was very easy, although one of our customers did supply us with a link to the appropriate Norwegian tax rules, and also correspondence between him and Customs, which made it extremely easy.

Our customers told us at the time that we were the lowest cost source. There were few if any coin shops or bullion dealers in Norway.

I am not aware of any change in the VAT status of silver coins in Norway.

Of course, as others have already pointed out, you would be liable for VAT if and when you import it into the UK or EU. Small amounts might be OK under personal allowances.

You could try to smuggle it in, but this is risky, illegal, and I would recommend against trying it.

😎

[Nicolaw]

hi, thanks all. it does seem strange as looking further at the links an on HMRC website it implies if its goods only £390 or if classed as currency then up to £10k is ok. so unless i ask HMRC myself then it is unclear what it would be classed as. i wouldn't be buying £10k worth.... although would be good to know if anyone has actually carried silver bulion back in their hand luggage (what we are thinking to do on our trip). i cant see an email address for hmrc to ask this question but there is a phone number so i will call them tomorrow and go from there and see if there is something i can get in writing as it is very hard to distinguish. i would be looking to do the norway holiday now, probably nov time but will give them a call and see. at least if i can get something in writing then i can protect myself either way. thanks all again, appreciate the effort for everyone to reply:)

[SidS]

I'm just impressed you've found something cheaper in Norway! It's an expensive country by the by.

[Nicolaw]

for those interssrted, i called the import/export hmrc helpline about this and they directed me to hmrc.gov.uk/trade-tariff to identify how it is classed on there, (i confirmed thati am not a trader its just for my collection). i checked, there are 2 potential code options code 7118, one to pay 20% vat and the other 0%. it doesn't state how the other option is VATE (exempt) . but i now have an email address where i will contact them to see if they can determine what it is and at least then i have something in writing either way....

SidS- i have been MANY years ago to norway, it was expensive then so expect it will be still... my partner hasnt been so should be lovely!!:) would just be a nice bonus to have this on top whilst we are there:)

[SidS]

18 minutes ago, Nicolaw said:

 SidS- i have been MANY years ago to norway, it was expensive then so expect it will be still... my partner hasnt been so should be lovely!!:) would just be a nice bonus to have this on top whilst we are there:)

Lovely country, been twice. I really like the place. But yes, heavy on the taxes.

[Ukbullionfan]

I hate all this why is there all these rules and regulations for something you buy and want to keep and save it’s a joke. VAT is criminal. Makes me sick.

[bluemoon]

Unfortunately the masses accept government intrusion as though it's normal, and so we are stuck with VAT among other things. Even income tax was only supposed to be a temporary war measure but a century later it is still here.

[SidS]

59 minutes ago, bluemoon said:

Unfortunately the masses accept government intrusion as though it's normal, and so we are stuck with VAT among other things. Even income tax was only supposed to be a temporary war measure but a century later it is still here.

Sometimes I feel I'm still paying window tax.

[LemmyMcGregor]

2 hours ago, bluemoon said:

Unfortunately the masses accept government intrusion as though it's normal, and so we are stuck with VAT among other things. Even income tax was only supposed to be a temporary war measure but a century later it is still here.