Purchasing gold coins

[Xander]

20 minutes ago, Melon said:

I thought it would be a bigger deal if replica sovereigns were sold by an established dealer, but reading between the lines nobody seems to have suggested that or even suggested taking them back. Learning curve for me I guess! Thread is here if it's of interest; 

Ingram coins sell Sovereign forgeries...legitimately.

[Melon]

19 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

If just bullion coins sold for a couple of points above spot, then yes, as long as the purity and weight is good, you may as well keep them. Although I have returned a couple of fakes to HGM even though they were sold at about 3 - 4%. Yes I am fussy, and even when I am buying bullion I am always looking for something worth a bit more than melt.

I have ceased to be surprised anymore by the ignorance of some dealers when it comes to fakes, or maybe there's a bit more to it at times?😎

Yes an eye opener for me! I paid 1% over spot during the Black Friday sale so can't complain there, but I'll feel more comfortable once I've done the measurements with my new accurate instruments! I must confess, until the point my scales has only gone to the nearest gram and my measurements were with a ruler 😂

[silenceissilver]

1 hour ago, TopHatsTales said:

That isn't good.

Last time out, they were more than Bairds and I walked past their door en route.

I have found them cheap and cheerful for bullion grade coins.

Before I went to Bairds, I popped into HGM, before the mess with the wrong coin, they asked, "are you a member?" "No, but I want to buy a few Sovereigns". "We only sell to members". So I left straight away. I'm not interested in complicated acceptance processes when I want to spend my money. If I wanted that I could apply to become a Free Mason and jump through a burning hoola hoop ring over a skull, swearing to follow Satan.

1 hour ago, stackspot said:

18K gold 😱

If you're talking about Carats shouldn't to be 22 Carat

With the certificate I got from Bairds, the dealer that sold me the 18K Half Sovereign, took it back and gave me a proof half Sovereign instead. None of the dealers we are talking about here.

42 minutes ago, Melon said:

Interesting, I've not got a pre-existing relationship with Bairds as-of-yet, but do you think they'd test a coin for me as well? Or is that something that came about through a lengthy relationship? Per my above comment there's a couple I have concerns on and I'd value a professionals viewpoint. 

No, I had no relationship with them before, at all. I just walked in and I didn't even buy many Sovereigns. So, I don't see any reason, why they wouldn't test it for you as long as you buy something there. Who knows, maybe they would even do it without you buying anything if they hoped to get you as future and returning customer.

 

25 minutes ago, Xander said:

I know what it's like to have wrong coins posted , I had a £850 1/2 sov sent to me, it took months for the coin company to sort the mess, I also asked them to stop emailing or sending me junk mail, no success there. I suppose that's part of living in the digital age.

I don't think naming the company and calling them "scum" ( unless there is an underlying reason for doing so) could possibly help your situation.

The only thing I want from them now is to delete my data. They are scum and passive aggressiveness drives me up the wall. I'm not a diplomat and I don't intend to become one. I have sold the 2019 Sovereign to a friend and bought an Elizabeth Young Head elsewhere.

[silenceissilver]

7 minutes ago, Melon said:

Yes an eye opener for me! I paid 1% over spot during the Black Friday sale so can't complain there, but I'll feel more comfortable once I've done the measurements with my new accurate instruments! I must confess, until the point my scales has only gone to the nearest gram and my measurements were with a ruler 😂

Are you talking about a specific gravitiy test that you want to carry out? That's how I found this falke half Sovereign to be a fake, it was considerably off. I think it's a very accurate method. I have tried a caliper before, I don't think this method works well.

[Xander]

11 minutes ago, Melon said:

I'll feel more comfortable once I've done the measurements with my new accurate instruments! I must confess, until the point my scales has only gone to the nearest gram and my measurements were with a ruler 😂

I still worry after doing the basic tests. I am still tempted to buy the sigma gold tester, they are pretty costly, though, peace of mind comes at a cost. My biggest fear is selling a fake coin to someone.

[silenceissilver]

24 minutes ago, Xander said:

I still worry after doing the basic tests. I am still tempted to buy the sigma gold tester, they are pretty costly, though, peace of mind comes at a cost. My biggest fear is selling a fake coin to someone.

I bought one, I think if you buy gold every month and plan to do so long term, it's an investment that pays off. Although I think with specific gravity tests you get very accurate results too, at least for (small) coins, maybe with big bars it's a different story. I just don't want to do them every month for decades to come.

[Tn21]

Going to the royal mint as your first purchase is a good move. Put in a small test order (however much you think is small enough to warrant a test order). After that if you are happy with the price and service go to them again. If not then other dealers are out there.

After time you can come across many other doors which may prove to be ideal when purchasing. I first bought from Bullion by Post because that was all I knew back then. The gold was real and the service was good. However their prices looking back on it was not great and infact I could have bought the same item cheaper elsewhere. Shortly afterwards I then came across Atkinson's, Baird and Co , etc etc and also TSF. 

 

[TopHatsTales]

I think they all require ID for first purchase. Maybe you then become 'a member'???

Either I have been lucky or scienceissilver hasn't at HGM.

 

[Melon]

1 hour ago, silenceissilver said:

Are you talking about a specific gravitiy test that you want to carry out? That's how I found this falke half Sovereign to be a fake, it was considerably off. I think it's a very accurate method. I have tried a caliper before, I don't think this method works well.

 

1 hour ago, Xander said:

I still worry after doing the basic tests. I am still tempted to buy the sigma gold tester, they are pretty costly, though, peace of mind comes at a cost. My biggest fear is selling a fake coin to someone.

Perhaps my logic is flawed, but if it's a known coin with a set diameter and thickness, then providing those check out and the weight is correct I think that proves the gold content right? 

[silenceissilver]

56 minutes ago, Melon said:

 

Perhaps my logic is flawed, but if it's a known coin with a set diameter and thickness, then providing those check out and the weight is correct I think that proves the gold content right? 

No, your logic is not flawed but in practice I found it inconclusive and hard to measure the thickness of Sovereigns accurately. From my experience, specific gravity tests are way better.

[Melon]

1 hour ago, silenceissilver said:

No, your logic is not flawed but in practice I found it inconclusive and hard to measure the thickness of Sovereigns accurately. From my experience, specific gravity tests are way better.

And after spending the last hour trying to do exactly that, I must say I now entirely agree with you 😂

Results to follow shortly; 

 

[swanky]

11 hours ago, Melon said:

Perhaps my logic is flawed, but if it's a known coin with a set diameter and thickness, then providing those check out and the weight is correct I think that proves the gold content right? 

Gold density can be faked using tungsten, which has just a 1.5% higher density. Chinese counterfeits have been around since at least 2014.

Fortunately, tungsten counterfeits fail the coin ping test.

 

[silenceissilver]

2 hours ago, swanky said:

Gold density can be faked using tungsten, which has just a 1.5% higher density. Chinese counterfeits have been around since at least 2014.

Fortunately, tungsten counterfeits fail the coin ping test.

 

They also fail the test with a very strong magnet. If you have the coin hanging on a tread from the specific gravity test already, with one of the two metals gold and tungsten it is slightly pulled to the magnet and with the other one it's pushed away. I've forgotten which metal does what, now. It's a bit a pain in the butt, but it's possible to identify a tungsten coin with a neodymium magnet. And even in terms of the density, tungsten coins come close but the don't match the density exactly. Furthermore, to my knowledge, there are one ounce tungsten coins but not small coins like sovereigns. There are variations of this test, not everyone requires a thread. Salviate metals on YT has shown a variety without it.

[swanky]

11 minutes ago, silenceissilver said:

And even in terms of the density, tungsten coins come close but the don't match the density exactly.

Obviously they do not use pure tungsten. Mix in a small amount of a lighter metal to bring the overall density down to match gold exactly.

[silenceissilver]

3 minutes ago, swanky said:

Obviously they do not use pure tungsten. Mix in a small amount of a lighter metal to bring the overall density down to match gold exactly.

It's certainly possible. The tungsten coins I heard about were pure tungsten, inside and gold plated. In any case a neodymium magnet does the trick, A least with coins, including one ounce coins. With big bars and a thick gold layer, the magnet test will probably not work

[TonyS]

How much profit is there in this game?

The expense of setting up the operation can’t be cheap.

Flood the market and you wreck your sales.

[SJK]

Thanks all.

Placed my first order today, I couldn't choose so went for both sovereigns and Britannias, also because I was curious I ordered a half sovereigns too!

[Guest]

Well done SJK, nice new years present, can't go wrong with Baird or Sharps Pixley imo. What I particularly like about Sharps Pixley is they price match certain brits, beasts, sovs and krugs so you find the exact product elsewhere (not pre-owned products) you'll get the lower price, now that is service,  class, have fun stacking in 2020