Heads up

[shemyaza]

Hatton Garden Metals for anyone wondering who we are talking about by the way. For those that don't know that neck of the woods, Tony Meo has a jewellers in that section off from Chancery Lane, also you'll find the smallest pub in the world just a few paces away as well, nice little area that. Anyone looking up HGM will find the latest Highland Goldmining Ltd share price so just making sure everyone is able to have a look and enjoy their site.

[ChrisSilver]

HGM are great, their prices are amazing. I just felt personally that they could handle coins by the edges to avoid fingerprints, I am sure they handle coins that way normally. Why would they deliberately put fingerprints on coins when it's just as easy not to. I am sure it's a one off though, as when I have purchased from them the coin seemed to be fine. It's very useful info to know that the coin your buying could be in bad condition, because now we all know to telephone to check if we are concerned about the condition of the coin, as like previously stated by other people they are a bullion dealer and may not care how they treat coins. Price wise though, HGM is the cheapest place you can find.

[Yeti]

HGM are great, their prices are amazing. I just felt personally that they could handle coins by the edges to avoid fingerprints, I am sure they handle coins that way normally.

As said before they have such a high turnover and don't go out of their way to charge a high premium on the good stuff that we have no right to feel pissed off or to demand a refund etc. nobody moans when they get proof coins in mint condition the cheapest in the country. As others have said, rub them up the wrong way too much and we'll all lose because they are a bullion dealer not a specialist coin dealer.

[ChrisSilver]

As said before they have such a high turnover and don't go out of their way to charge a high premium on the good stuff that we have no right to feel pissed off or to demand a refund etc. nobody moans when they get proof coins in mint condition the cheapest in the country. As others have said, rub them up the wrong way too much and we'll all lose because they are a bullion dealer not a specialist coin dealer.

 

Yes but my point was that if it doesn't cost any extra time to handle a coin without getting finger prints all over it than with, why wouldn't someone handle all coins so that that they don't leave fingerprints. Only makes logical sense.

I think generally HGM do handle coins properly* (*by properly I mean by the edges to avoid fingerprints), otherwise all coins would arrive with fingerprints on and we know they don't.

If I hadn't of read the OP post then I wouldn't expect a proof coin set, which had an additional premium compared to other other gold bullion coins on the HGM website, to arrive with finger prints on. I don't think that is a crazy assumption to make.

This is their definition of Bullion grade:

Bullion grade

Each coin that we send out is manually checked to ensure there is no damage beyond normal wear and tear of the coin or bar. Each coin is despatched in a transparent coin wallet and packed in protective packaging to ensure that your coin or bar arrives safely with you.

These coins aren't circulation coins, they are proof coins, so I wouldn't expect finger prints to be normal wear and tear. You may however disagree with my opinion and believe fingerprints to be normal wear and tear. HGM are perfectly entitled to run their business anyway they wish, they could put finger prints on each coin deliberately if they wanted to and as you said they would still probably get a lot of buyers who only care about the bullion value. But if the don't have any standards of the way in which they handle coins (which I don't think is true, as like I said before all coins would arrive with fingerprints), then adding "coins may occasional arrive with fingerprints on" to their definition of bullion grade would be nice to avoid some disappointed customers.

I just want to reiterate that I believe this to be a one off, as I have ordered, and I know many others have ordered from HGM before and have received amazing coins at amazing prices. I will however telephone first to check quality of an item before purchasing to avoid disappointment.

[Stu]

I agree with Chris, it seems crazy to mark proof coins where with just a little care will keep the coin in A1 condition. HGM know their own business however, most of us support them by giving them business and they are a very successful company.

For anyone who is interested, I have decided not to return the coins. I can not live with the finger marks however so will attempt to clean them, Chards suggest using acetone. If I muck them up, then at the end of the day, as others have highlighted, I will still have bullion.

Again I will always now check with HGM re condition before making a purchase of this type. I am sure that I will be buying from them in the future, even if only for standard British bullion.

[HighlandTiger]

I think this thread reiterates the difference between a stacker who is happy to sell his coins in the future and make a profit and a collector who wants to keep his coins forever. Collectors seem to have nightmares about handling coins, fingerprints, toning, milk spots etc. But I'm mainly a stacker and couldn't give two hoots if coins turn up with these things, especially if I got them at a cheap price and I thought I could flip them for a nice profit. I'll just clean the coins, (soft sponge and hot soapy water in this case), stick them back in their case and wait for the right time to sell them. Yes we'd all like the coins to turn up in an uncirculated or untouched condition, saves the hassle of cleaning, but it isn't going to happen. Especially on coins that have been around for decades, that someone has sold to a bullion dealer because they need the cash, and who then sell it to us at what is really rock bottom prices. Yes they could be ultra careful with the the coins, but they are a bullion dealer . I bet that coins are a very small part of their business and most of their incoming gold is broken rings, chains, pendants etc. All of which have to be checked they are genuine and then the money paid out to sellers within the short time they promise. They are not going to be wearing gloves when they open all these packages. They have no idea what is in them and I know myself it would be a pain in the ass if I had to stuck on gloves just because a package has a coin or two in it.

[Kman]

I think this thread reiterates the difference between a stacker who is happy to sell his coins in the future 

 

Damaged coins don't effect resale value then? 

[HighlandTiger]

Depends if you think that if finger prints, toning, and milk spots constitutes "damage" to a coin. Because I certainly don't.

[Guest]

Is a proof set Bullion? I say no it is proof and that is a different grade. If a proof coin is touched it is damaged and from that point onwards it's value is bullion value.

If you buy anything sight unseen and it is described as proof then you have every right to expect it to be in full proof condition which can vary between PF61 and PF70.

Any calling sold that's a premium over bullion should be PF65+ standard if it is a modern coin (and 90% will be PF68+ standard) and if its older the standard may be lower but it should not have obvious damage or fingerprints on it.

Take a look at taxfreegold.co.uk which sets out the premiums over spot for many many proof coins.

I would expect that any coin selling for 15% plus over spot would be in absolutely perfect condition if described as proof.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stu]

Can't agree more with this. It's a bullion company - if you want numismatics go to a specialist firm. Frankly, I'd have told the buyer to shove his complaint - he bought them as bullion, and paid a price that reflected this.

Frankly , you are not the shop manager and aware of how much business I have given them over the past 6 months, that figure will remain between me and HGM, suffice to say it is no small change. Keeping the customer happy and protection future profits makes good business sense, even if the customer is being a pain in the a#*e

[Yeti]

I would expect that any coin selling for 15% plus over spot would be in absolutely perfect condition if described as proof.

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The set STU bought was only 5% over spot. Was this really a lot for a sovereign set proof or not?

[Yeti]

.

Again I will always now check with HGM re condition before making a purchase of this type. I am sure that I will be buying from them in the future, even if only for standard British bullion.

So if you and everyone else rings up and wants to know condition etc and then if they get it wrong you will no doubt be upset how long do you think they will say you know what, whatever goes on the site take it or leave it no more phone enquiries, no refunds etc.

No disrespect mate you may have spent a lot with them but I'd say they're not struggling to shift stock especially any type of sets which are gone within minutes.

[Yeti]

If I hadn't of read the OP post then I wouldn't expect a proof coin set, which had an additional premium compared to other other gold bullion coins on the HGM website, to arrive with finger prints on. I don't think that is a crazy assumption to make.

I saw the set up for sale and it wasn't described as proof just a 4 coin set with a 5% over spot markup. I just can't work out why people are upset with finger marks. If you want a pristine set go pay the full premium from a coin dealer not a scrap metal bullion dealer.

[BaldyBob]

Big fan of HGM and they have correctly looked after a repeat customer and offered a refund.

 

As a stacker I am happy to take my chances, but collectors beware. The more you insist on mint condition, or ask about particular dates, then they will cotton on to the fact that there is indeed extra money to be made.

Watch the premiums rise then.

[sovereignsteve]

Big fan of HGM and they have correctly looked after a repeat customer and offered a refund.

 

As a stacker I am happy to take my chances, but collectors beware. The more you insist on mint condition, or ask about particular dates, then they will cotton on to the fact that there is indeed extra money to be made.

Watch the premiums rise then.

Exactly.

They have already taken steps in this direction. A couple of years ago they weren't aware of this but now have more categories with different and higher mark-ups.

For example; a while ago I used to buy Victoria halves at the same premium as later ones. Recently, these are being sold as "shields" at a much higher premium even though any post-1887 aren't worth a premium.

[HighlandTiger]

Sovsteve makes a good point. I've only been aware of HGM for a year and I have seen the premiums on shield Sovs go from 5% to 8% and now 15%. No doubt thanks to "collectors" [emoji12]

Do I really want premiums to continue to rise. Hell no. Perhaps "collectors" should take their business to Atkinson's and leave HGM to us lowly stackers.

[sovereignsteve]

I saw the set up for sale and it wasn't described as proof just a 4 coin set with a 5% over spot markup. I just can't work out why people are upset with finger marks. If you want a pristine set go pay the full premium from a coin dealer not a scrap metal bullion dealer.

HGM don't sell "proof" 4 coin sets. They sell "bullion" 4 coins sets.

The fact that the latter doesn't exist as such, and we all know any such sets will be proof is irrelevant. They could be in any condition and as long as the coins are genuine and of the correct weight, they will have described them correctly as bullion.

If HGM advertised them as "proof" then we could demand perfection but the premium would be higher and they would need to treat their coins with the respect that a numismatic coin dealer would. They are not that kind of dealer. No one who works there has much in the way of any numismatic knowledge and they don't pretend to sell you anything on that basis.

I have seen proof coins sold on ebay in a right state, badly treated and marked but still sold as proof.

All I'm saying is realise what we have in HGM and treat them well or lose them.

[sovereignsteve]

Sovsteve makes a good point. I've only been aware of HGM for a year and I have seen the premiums on shield Sovs go from 5% to 8% and now 15%. No doubt thanks to "collectors" [emoji12]

Do I really want premiums to continue to rise. Hell no. Perhaps "collectors" should take their business to Atkinson's and leave HGM to us lowly stackers.

Ha no chance, I like my bargains too much!

[sovereignsteve]

Sovsteve makes a good point. I've only been aware of HGM for a year and I have seen the premiums on shield Sovs go from 5% to 8% and now 15%. No doubt thanks to "collectors" [emoji12]

Do I really want premiums to continue to rise. Hell no. Perhaps "collectors" should take their business to Atkinson's and leave HGM to us lowly stackers.

You lowly stackers shouldn't be interested in shields anyway, leave them to us collectors.

[Kman]

Ha no chance, I like my bargains too much!

 

Given the choice, would you rather pay 3% for Victoria shield sovs in random condition, or 15% for guaranteed overall good condition?

[HighlandTiger]

Easy choice kman. 3% any day. The crap ones I can sell on at a profit any day on the week on ebay

[sovereignsteve]

Given the choice, would you rather pay 3% for Victoria shield sovs in random condition, or 15% for guaranteed overall good condition?

There is really no choice to make. Both.

I would pay 3% for random shields all day long. as long as they're not totally worn out and decrepit, I couldn't lose. Even then, a few underweight, fit for the melt ones wouldn't be a problem as the value in all the others would more than make up for it.

I would also pay the 15% for "good condition" ones. It might take a couple of purchases to make sure the described condition was accurate but in the long run, I would find enough value to compensate for the "bullion" value ones.

[Kman]

Easy choice kman. 3% any day. The crap ones I can sell on at a profit any day on the week on ebay

 

Hmm I don't know, they might only sell for £230 ish if they're in bad shape, with the fees being around the 14% (including paypal) then you're probably only making around your money back

 

Still a good buy in general as your money will be safe in them

 

But on the other hand if you pay 15% and get a nice one then I think your chances of making a decent profit straight away with a flip are much better

[Kman]

Out of interest Steve, what would you value this 1857 at please?

 

 

[BaldyBob]

You know how I feel about Sov's, and you Fella's are welcome to them

 

I just want to continue buying the odd Brit or Kangaroo for spot +3%