Fake sovereign, anyway to test approx gold content at home?

[LawrenceChard]

8 minutes ago, Hotdog said:

Reading "The Royal Mint" its working, conduct, and operations, fully and practically explained by George Fredrick Ansell, he comments that "The law enacts that 20lbs. troy of standard or crown gold shall be made into 934.50 sovereigns." It follows that the weight of a single sovereign is 123.2744783306581059 troy grains, i.e. 7.9880518266452649 grams; though reading further it becomes more complex with regards to the permitted tolerance. 

Reprints of Ansell's book are available online. 

Well done, that's a great answer indeed.

Now I am going to have to search to see where I have stored my information.

I usually cite the nominal weight as 7.98805 grams or 7.988052 although I see you have got it to 16 decimal places. This is, or should be, important when using it in calculations.

Although truncating it to fewer decimal places makes it easier to read and remember, I always try to avoid any rounding when doing calculations.

I have just re-worked my calculations, and subject to checking for errors:

 

20lbs. troy of standard or crown gold (= bar)	20		lbs troy
	12		troy ounces per pound
	240		troy ounces
	480		grains per troy ounce
	115200		grains
	934.5		sovereigns per bar
	123.274478330658		grains per sovereign
One grain =	64.79891		milligrammes
One grain =	0.06479891		grams
Therefore sovereign weighs	7.98805182664527		grams
Fineness (22/24)	0.916666666666667		fine
Sovereign fine gold content	7.32238084109149		grams
Grams per troy ounce	31.1034768
Sovereign fine gold content	0.23542001070091		troy ounces

Many innumerati, including The Royal Mint, are gulity of disseminating misleading information, by publishing inaccurate "facts", as a result of rounding, often to 2 decimal places. 

Rounding introduces errors. When these inaccurate, rounded, numbers are then used in calculations, particularly when multiplied, the errors are made greater.

More to follow...

[Hotdog]

As a general observation, I guess Ansells's book would be of interest to to those that wish to delve further in to the history/manufacture of the Gold Sovereign. A copy/reprint is available on a well known book website for a tenner. The book covers some of the politics/personalities involved as well as the physical manufacture of Sovereigns around the year 1856, when there were some issues to be resolved. In todays parlance some of it would be seen as office politics (managing of people and egos), but in engineering terms as hands on resolving of problems, Ansell was the man that was required. In hindsight it may appear that the problems were easy to resolve, but that would be an over simplification where both practical and local politics would have presented considerable difficulties to those of lesser resolve.    

[Booky586]

11 hours ago, Hotdog said:

"The law enacts that 20lbs. troy of standard or crown gold shall be made into 934.50 sovereigns."

Good find. Ansell could have been even more helpful if he'd have cited his source, It must be in print somewhere if it's controlled by an act of law.

[Hotdog]

My assumption.....It follows from the coinage act of 1816 also known as the Liverpool act. 

22 carat gold was fixed at a value of £46-14s-6d per pound.

Sovereigns were to have a value of £1.

20lbs weight would have cost 20 x (£46-14s-6d) = £934.5 hence there would be 934.5 Sovereigns to 20lbs. Troy weight of 22 carat Gold.

[Hotdog]

Another reference: -

Lisle, George (1906). "British Currency: Gold". Accounting in Theory and Practice . William Green & Sons. p. 277.

 

[LawrenceChard]

On 11/02/2019 at 17:31, TheGoldSovereign said:

Take a look at the pictures of two 1920-P sovereigns, one fake and one genuine, an ok copy.

From what I've read a lot of the better copies actually have a high gold content, almost 22ct. Is there anyway I can test this at home? The dims are fine and the weight 😲

 

Looking at some of the amazing copies on @drakesterling 's website it makes me want to check more closely in future!

 

I suggest giving each photo a title, caption, or description.

Sure, I can tell that the second photo's look like fakes, but not everyone will be able to tell.

The first photos don't look entirely convincing for genuine coins, which helps to compound the problem.

[LawrenceChard]

On 11/02/2019 at 17:49, TheGoldSovereign said:

Yea i have no doubt they exist, I've had a few that were 22ct confirmed by HGM some time ago

However the XRF machine he mentioned I got a quote for as i say at 12k so no good, is specific gravity accurate enough in that will it reveal what metal is it? 

No, it is just one possible test, out of many, and will only indicate whther the S.G. / density is in approximately the correct range.

Alloys of plaltinum, tungsten, or other heavy metals could easily be adjusted to be the correct density for pure gold, or gold alloys, then gold plated.

[LawrenceChard]

On 11/02/2019 at 17:49, TheGoldSovereign said:

Yea i have no doubt they exist, I've had a few that were 22ct confirmed by HGM some time ago

However the XRF machine he mentioned I got a quote for as i say at 12k so no good, is specific gravity accurate enough in that will it reveal what metal is it? 

No, it is just one possible test, out of many, and will only indicate whther the S.G. / density is in approximately the correct range.

Alloys of plaltinum, tungsten, or other heavy metals could easily be adjusted to be the correct density for pure gold, or gold alloys, then gold plated.

Edited July 3, 2021 by LawrenceChard
attempted to delete duplicate post

[LawrenceChard]

On 11/02/2019 at 17:54, HawkHybrid said:

my understanding is that the sg test reveals the average density.

it's then an educated guess as to the likely composition.

 

HH

Slight correction:

It's then a guess as to the likely composition.

🙂

[Hotdog]

1 hour ago, Hotdog said:

Another reference: -

Lisle, George (1906). "British Currency: Gold". Accounting in Theory and Practice . William Green & Sons. p. 277.

 

Another reference from 1811 Hansard: -

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1811-05-06/debates/18a47646-0915-435a-9140-cf8cc635dfe1/ReportOfTheBullionCommittee—MrHornerSResolutions

[LawrenceChard]

19 hours ago, Booky586 said:

Good find. Ansell could have been even more helpful if he'd have cited his source, It must be in print somewhere if it's controlled by an act of law.

It probably would have still been in print when his book was first published in 1870.

🙂

[Hotdog]

My view....... is that the 1816 coinage act states that gold coins should meet the standards of existing gold coins on a pro rata basis i.e. the Gold Guinea which was in existence already and had a clearly defined purity (which was to become the same standard for Sovereigns, but at a pro rata value/size of 20 shillings as opposed to the Guinea of 21 shillings. As far as I've read there is no other definition of the Sovereign in the 1860 coinage act, but it follows on in 20/21 proportional value to the existing Gold Guinea with the same Gold/Alloy mixture. My view again is that the act states for the mint to get on and make such gold coins as required, but doesn't define dimensional attributes. I'm guessing that the mint then came up with a gold alloy coin(same alloy ratio as the Guinea as required by the 1816 act) with a value of 20 shillings (which was the value being discussed in parliament in 2011). I'm "guessing" again that the mint decided on the physical dimensions/design of the sovereign following the only other requirement by law that was to have have the 11 parts gold and 1 part alloy. Only my interpretation, and happy to be corrected. 

[Hotdog]

13 hours ago, Hotdog said:

My view....... is that the 1816 coinage act states that gold coins should meet the standards of existing gold coins on a pro rata basis i.e. the Gold Guinea which was in existence already and had a clearly defined purity (which was to become the same standard for Sovereigns, but at a pro rata value/size of 20 shillings as opposed to the Guinea of 21 shillings. As far as I've read there is no other definition of the Sovereign in the 1860 coinage act, but it follows on in 20/21 proportional value to the existing Gold Guinea with the same Gold/Alloy mixture. My view again is that the act states for the mint to get on and make such gold coins as required, but doesn't define dimensional attributes. I'm guessing that the mint then came up with a gold alloy coin(same alloy ratio as the Guinea as required by the 1816 act) with a value of 20 shillings (which was the value being discussed in parliament in 2011). I'm "guessing" again that the mint decided on the physical dimensions/design of the sovereign following the only other requirement by law that was to have have the 11 parts gold and 1 part alloy. Only my interpretation, and happy to be corrected. 

correction....parliament in 1811

[Hotdog]

Just re reading "The Royal Mint, its working, conduct, and operations, fully and practically explained by George Fredrick Ansell" published 1870.... Ansell asked how far his authority extended. He was advised that "If you order the men to dance a hornpipe on the table, they shall do it." 

I guess work practices would prevent this now.