Fake sovereign, anyway to test approx gold content at home?

[TheGoldSovereign]

Take a look at the pictures of two 1920-P sovereigns, one fake and one genuine, an ok copy.

From what I've read a lot of the better copies actually have a high gold content, almost 22ct. Is there anyway I can test this at home? The dims are fine and the weight 😲

 

Looking at some of the amazing copies on @drakesterling 's website it makes me want to check more closely in future!

 

Edited February 11, 2019 by sg86

[mr-dead]

Chards did a recent video where the fake had a higher gold content than the real thing: @ 3:50

 

Edited February 11, 2019 by mr-dead

[TheGoldSovereign]

Yea i have no doubt they exist, I've had a few that were 22ct confirmed by HGM some time ago

However the XRF machine he mentioned I got a quote for as i say at 12k so no good, is specific gravity accurate enough in that will it reveal what metal is it? 

[HawkHybrid]

my understanding is that the sg test reveals the average density.

it's then an educated guess as to the likely composition.

 

HH

Edited February 11, 2019 by HawkHybrid

[mr-dead]

found this but you would need to know what alloy metals are in the coin

[TheGoldSovereign]

20 minutes ago, mr-dead said:

found this but you would need to know what alloy metals are in the coin

Useful thanks, I think it's silver so will do the test tonight and report back

[sovereignsteve]

4 hours ago, sg86 said:

Yea i have no doubt they exist, I've had a few that were 22ct confirmed by HGM some time ago

However the XRF machine he mentioned I got a quote for as i say at 12k so no good, is specific gravity accurate enough in that will it reveal what metal is it? 

Of the ones I've seen and had tested, and ones I've read and heard about; if it's a good quality fake, it's size and weight are right (and a lot of them are), you can be almost certain the alloy will be correst at around 22ct. Only way it could be way out is if there is some tungsten involved and that's not likely on such a small coin.

[TheGoldSovereign]

So I need new scales,  they should be arriving today! but current findings are:

 

Real Sov:

Weight - 8.1g

Weight in water - 0.4g

SG - 20.25

Fake Sov:

Weight - 8.2g

Weight in water - 0.5g

SG - 16.4

 

Based on the table below and my dodgy scales I'd say it could be 18ct, will only have a much better idea when I can get 0.01 weights and accurate!

 

 

[augur]

Could you also measure the diameter of the fake coin? It would probably tie in nicely with the 22.2mm Sydney sovereigns?

[sovereignsteve]

1 hour ago, sg86 said:

So I need new scales,  they should be arriving today! but current findings are:

 

Real Sov:

Weight - 8.1g

Weight in water - 0.4g

SG - 20.25

Fake Sov:

Weight - 8.2g

Weight in water - 0.5g

SG - 16.4

 

surely the size can't be right at that density?

it shouldn't weigh more than a real one either, i always use proof sovs as a yardstick, an old one should weigh noticeably less, depending on how circulated it looks.

you should be able to tell this even with poor quality scales.

[eddi]

A have one   D 22.2mm    W 7.93 g   sg 16.4   bought long time ago, a guess your diameter  must be different 

[Zhorro]

11 minutes ago, eddi said:

A have one   D 22.2mm    W 7.93 g   sg 16.4   bought long time ago, a guess your diameter  must be different 

Is the D 22.2mm a Sydney sovereign?  A number of these have been reported.  If so, what year is it?

[eddi]

No its Edward    1905  london

[TheGoldSovereign]

7 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

surely the size can't be right at that density?

it shouldn't weigh more than a real one either, i always use proof sovs as a yardstick, an old one should weigh noticeably less, depending on how circulated it looks.

you should be able to tell this even with poor quality scales.

When I said poor scales I meant they must be way out of calibration but seems not too far off. 

Final results are:

Real - 8.01g, 0.47 in water and 17.042 SG

Fake - 8.04g, 0.48 in water and 16.75 SG

 

I did the test with a. 999 1oz britannia and it came back 19.11 SG

I weighed 20+ sovs on the scales and they ranged from. 7.93 to 8.05, the britannia was also 31.35

 

End result is that its likely 20ct, so not far off, anyone think this could be majorly wrong or I'm missing something? 

[silenceissilver]

Not sure if this thread is helpful

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by silenceissilver

[Hotdog]

I've bought two 2020 sovereigns from different well known UK sources the weights are correct at between 7.99 to 8 grams. The diameters measure satisfactorily at 22mm. The thicknesses around the edges vary slightly between 1.63 and 1.75mm on both coins depending at which position taken. The thickness using a point micrometer in way of the flat surfaces (avoiding the queens head and the horse and dragon) are 1.09mm. The thing that is puzzling me is when I do specific gravity check, both are showing at 16.6. What I read online I should have a higher SG.  Is anybody else finding this on the 2020 sovereigns? The scales that I'm using are accurate to .01 gram. 

[Notafront4adragon]

10 minutes ago, Hotdog said:

I've bought two 2020 sovereigns from different well known UK sources the weights are correct at between 7.99 to 8 grams. The diameters measure satisfactorily at 22mm. The thicknesses around the edges vary slightly between 1.63 and 1.75mm on both coins depending at which position taken. The thickness using a point micrometer in way of the flat surfaces (avoiding the queens head and the horse and dragon) are 1.09mm. The thing that is puzzling me is when I do specific gravity check, both are showing at 16.6. What I read online I should have a higher SG.  Is anybody else finding this on the 2020 sovereigns? The scales that I'm using are accurate to .01 gram. 

Are you sure your technique is correct, and have you repeated it? If it's still coming out at 16.6 then I'd be concerned. That's 18ct with silver alloy. 

You may need to get them tested at a jewellers, they'll likely have an XRF or electronic tester.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Notafront4adragon

[silverdocket]

8 minutes ago, Hotdog said:

I've bought two 2020 sovereigns from different well known UK sources the weights are correct at between 7.99 to 8 grams. The diameters measure satisfactorily at 22mm. The thicknesses around the edges vary slightly between 1.63 and 1.75mm on both coins depending at which position taken. The thickness using a point micrometer in way of the flat surfaces (avoiding the queens head and the horse and dragon) are 1.09mm. The thing that is puzzling me is when I do specific gravity check, both are showing at 16.6. What I read online I should have a higher SG.  Is anybody else finding this on the 2020 sovereigns? The scales that I'm using are accurate to .01 gram. 

I wonder is everybody allowing for wear and tear and damage.

Sometimes I try wearing multiple things together on my scale and I get slightly different results.

For example weigh three sovereigns together and then weigh them separately. 

I have two different scales and each one give me a slightly different result.

[HawkHybrid]

4 hours ago, Hotdog said:

I've bought two 2020 sovereigns from different well known UK sources the weights are correct at between 7.99 to 8 grams. The diameters measure satisfactorily at 22mm. The thicknesses around the edges vary slightly between 1.63 and 1.75mm on both coins depending at which position taken. The thickness using a point micrometer in way of the flat surfaces (avoiding the queens head and the horse and dragon) are 1.09mm. The thing that is puzzling me is when I do specific gravity check, both are showing at 16.6. What I read online I should have a higher SG.  Is anybody else finding this on the 2020 sovereigns? The scales that I'm using are accurate to .01 gram. 

 

you might want to check your margin of error.

On 12/02/2019 at 18:51, TheGoldSovereign said:

Final results are:

Real - 8.01g, 0.47 in water and 17.042 SG

Fake - 8.04g, 0.48 in water and 16.75 SG

notice how an error of 0.01(0.47 to 0.48) can result in a noticeable sg change

(the 0.03g in air weight is a smaller % change)

 

HH

Edited July 1, 2020 by HawkHybrid

[Hotdog]

Thanks guys for your comments. I revised my technique and also used two sovs at the same time (slightly apart to avoid trapped air bubbles) and had an SG of 17.55. So I'm happy again.

[LawrenceChard]

On 11/02/2019 at 17:31, TheGoldSovereign said:

Take a look at the pictures of two 1920-P sovereigns, one fake and one genuine, an ok copy.

From what I've read a lot of the better copies actually have a high gold content, almost 22ct. Is there anyway I can test this at home? The dims are fine and the weight 😲

Looking at some of the amazing copies on @drakesterling 's website it makes me want to check more closely in future!

 

Another late entry!

Looking at your photos, I had to check a few times to be sure which you were calling genuine, and which the fake.

I presume the genuine one came first, followed by the fake, but a quick tip on trying to make things idiot-proof, is to caption or label them, just in text, not necessarily on the pics themselves.There were some features on the upper pics which I was dubious about.

[LawrenceChard]

On 11/02/2019 at 22:33, sovereignsteve said:

Of the ones I've seen and had tested, and ones I've read and heard about; if it's a good quality fake, it's size and weight are right (and a lot of them are), you can be almost certain the alloy will be correst at around 22ct. Only way it could be way out is if there is some tungsten involved and that's not likely on such a small coin.

Tungsten is unlikely.

Although there are many internet stories about gold-plated tungsten Krugerrands and bars, we have never yet detected any tungsten in any of our tests. I have thought about buying a Chinese gold-plated tungsten coin to test, but it was quite expensive (for a fake), so have not done so yet.

[LawrenceChard]

On 12/02/2019 at 09:36, TheGoldSovereign said:

So I need new scales,  they should be arriving today! but current findings are:

 

Real Sov:

Weight - 8.1g

Weight in water - 0.4g

SG - 20.25

Fake Sov:

Weight - 8.2g

Weight in water - 0.5g

SG - 16.4

Based on the table below and my dodgy scales I'd say it could be 18ct, will only have a much better idea when I can get 0.01 weights and accurate!

If your weight in water figure is out by 0.1 grams, your error would be in the order of 20% to 25%.

Calibrated to the next decimal place would reduce the likely error by a factor of 10, so 2% instead of 20%.

I did notice you had got new scales, and a more accurate result.

As you noted, the calibration of the scales is important.

 

[LawrenceChard]

On 01/07/2020 at 14:27, Hotdog said:

I've bought two 2020 sovereigns from different well known UK sources the weights are correct at between 7.99 to 8 grams. The diameters measure satisfactorily at 22mm. The thicknesses around the edges vary slightly between 1.63 and 1.75mm on both coins depending at which position taken. The thickness using a point micrometer in way of the flat surfaces (avoiding the queens head and the horse and dragon) are 1.09mm. The thing that is puzzling me is when I do specific gravity check, both are showing at 16.6. What I read online I should have a higher SG.  Is anybody else finding this on the 2020 sovereigns? The scales that I'm using are accurate to .01 gram. 

I just added a new post:

 

Which may have some relevance to the discussion.

Who knows what the correct official weight is or should be?

Currently, my post is done as a challenge, but also as research.

I do know the correct answer, but there is some surprising stuff I discovered recently.

Edited July 3, 2021 by LawrenceChard
typo

[Hotdog]

Reading "The Royal Mint" its working, conduct, and operations, fully and practically explained by George Fredrick Ansell, he comments that "The law enacts that 20lbs. troy of standard or crown gold shall be made into 934.50 sovereigns." It follows that the weight of a single sovereign is 123.2744783306581059 troy grains, i.e. 7.9880518266452649 grams; though reading further it becomes more complex with regards to the permitted tolerance. 

Reprints of Ansell's book are available online.