First purchase - Thoughts and where i shopped

[Pritchard]

Hye guys,

After joining yesterday to ask some questions of you chaps i was recommended to visit hattenGarden Metals in London. I've just put my hands on a dozen sovereigns. So many thanks for your advice.

I got 11 'best value' coins, which are all wrapped up 2009 dated. and then i asked them for the oldest they had. So ive also got a 1893 Queen Vic sov. (if i can work out how to upload pics i will - because i have a question coming.)

 

Hatten Garden - were great. It was my first time and they popped me gently. A lady even came out from the back to give me a demo on a few coins they had to help explain things. There were great.

Sovereign vs Britannia,
I have bought just sovs, however while i was there i asked if i could see a Britannia. They let me handle a brit and also a Queens Beast. OH WOW. I was blown away by that. Sov may be the collectors choice, but from someone who has just handled (and laid eyes on for that matter) both for the first time, at the same time, the Britannia for me was a massive winner. I was going to ask if i could do an intant return on the sov's i had just stuffed into my bag.

oh well. they are on their way now to private storge anyway. but next purchase i think will be a Brit.

Thanks for your assistance and advice guys. Good call on Hatten.

Questions:

The 2009 sovs i have are all in a sort of 'mass produced' vacuum formings, with an embossed 'British Royal Mint' repeating across it. They are all joined together. Does this mean they have never been exposed to the elements since being minted? - pic uploading. its only a camera phone, it didnt do well on closeups.

1893 Sov. I have come across some rarity scale, 'Marv' or something? is there any general interest in older coins, or is it just particular years that have significance. < i dont mean to open up a whole debate on this. im sure there are dozen of varities per year. lets just stick with this year so i dont get blown away with abuse of my ignorance, because i am.

 

thanks again

Pritchard

[Auricsstash]

Just spotted HGM are out of stock on the best value sovereigns now I know where they all went! Congratulations on your first pick up all looking good... the sealed ones are factory sealed so yes never opened!

[GeorgeWoodall]

Great purchase, I'm sure it'll be the first of many!

[JunkBond]

The 1893 sov is the first year of that design, called Old Head or Veiled Head.

It may be minted in London (no mint mark) over six million minted, Melbourne (M) over one million minted or Sydney (S) over one million minted.

Mint marks are above the date.

None are rare except maybe in high grade, according to "Marsh"

[kimchi]

47 minutes ago, Pritchard said:

Hatten Garden - were great. It was my first time and they popped me gently.

Good lord

[JunkBond]

Just now, kimchi said:

Good lord

Yeah, what a place to be popped, I am so jealous.

[JunkBond]

Don't buy an old sovereign in very high grade @Pritchard

Once you have held one, you will want lots more!

[Pritchard]

8 minutes ago, JunkBond said:

The 1893 sov is the first year of that design, called Old Head or Veiled Head.

It may be minted in London (no mint mark) over six million minted, Melbourne (M) over one million minted or Sydney (S) over one million minted.

Mint marks are above the date.

None are rare except maybe in high grade, according to "Marsh"

thank you for this ^^, no mint mark, that i can see with my old eyes anyway.

[Pritchard]

1 minute ago, JunkBond said:

Don't buy an old sovereign in very high grade @Pritchard

Once you have held one, you will want lots more!

 

I really want a Britannia now (i can see how you guys get hooked on this stuff).
it was like holding a hockey puck

[JunkBond]

I guess you are referring to a 1oz Brit. I think any 1oz gold coin in the hand for the first time is a "moment".

[Pritchard]

Just now, JunkBond said:

I guess you are referring to a 1oz Brit. I think any 1oz coin in the hand for the first time is a "moment".

yes the 1oz. Held this and also the 1oz Queens Beast.
 

[kimchi]

1 minute ago, JunkBond said:

I guess you are referring to a 1oz Brit. I think any 1oz gold coin in the hand for the first time is a "moment".

1ozers are indeed really something. I'm very pleased to own...at least one (maybe)

There was someone on here in the last few days who had bought a kilo coin

@Pritchard was that a bullion Brit? If so may I recommend the 2013 as it is slightly thinner and a decent amount wider than the others? Apparently it didn't go down well with investors/stackers because the size was different, but to admire a bullion coin it's so nice to have it bigger. I wouldn't recommend them for silver, but for gold Bullionbypost would probably let you pick a year from their 'random year - best value' depending on stock.

Also when buying in bulk try to get a discount

[Pritchard]

2 minutes ago, kimchi said:

1ozers are indeed really something. I'm very pleased to own...at least one (maybe)

There was someone on here in the last few days who had bought a kilo coin

@Pritchard was that a bullion Brit? If so may I recommend the 2013 as it is slightly thinner and a decent amount wider than the others? Apparently it didn't go down well with investors/stackers because the size was different, but to admire a bullion coin it's so nice to have it bigger. I wouldn't recommend them for silver, but for gold Bullionbypost would probably let you pick a year from their 'random year - best value' depending on stock.

Also when buying in bulk try to get a discount

You have to excuse me, i think i am already in too deep - I thought a 'Brit' was short for 'Britannia', and i thought a Britannia was the 1oz 24ct coin.
so, what is it, or what is it not, if its 'bullion brit'?

 

.... a 1kg coin?! Again i am ignorant to this, but someone could leave that lying on the train and i wouldnt even give it a second look. i would think it was a comedy/joke coin thats just painted gold.  (thats the image in my head, anyway)

[JunkBond]

Brits are available in 1/10th, 1/4, 1/2 and 1oz, they also have not always been 24ct.

[Pritchard]

@JunkBond oh i see.

Then yes, it was the 1oz, 24ct. it was a recent year, i seem to think 2014 but i didnt really take note. the queens beast one i think said 2017.

so, when and where should i use the term 'bullion' when refering to coins?

 

also - thanks for taking the time to help me with these questions. i understand as long servering forum members you get this kind of stuff all the time. But as its organic discussion its quite useful  

 

[JunkBond]

Bullion is anything just worth its gold weight and has no numismatic premium attached to it.

[kimchi]

1 hour ago, Pritchard said:

You have to excuse me, i think i am already in too deep - I thought a 'Brit' was short for 'Britannia', and i thought a Britannia was the 1oz 24ct coin.
so, what is it, or what is it not, if its 'bullion brit'?

 

.... a 1kg coin?! Again i am ignorant to this, but someone could leave that lying on the train and i wouldnt even give it a second look. i would think it was a comedy/joke coin thats just painted gold.  (thats the image in my head, anyway)

No problem! That is why we are all here to help each other

As well as the yearly bullion Brits (often the same design but 2017 also had an anniversary issue and this year there is an extra Oriental Border with a mintage of only 5000 and which is super nice) there are Proof sets/individual coins which are, confusingly, a different yearly design, and as Proofs carry the expected premium for Proof coins.

This one took me a while to work out myself when I joined up here!

From memory 2013 was the first 24 carat bullion which is why they switched the size (thickness, diameter) and when that wasn't popular they reverted back in 2014. I love the 2013 myself (who doesn't love a wider gold coin?!!)

[Pritchard]

@kimchi 

thanks.

right so for example, this 'generic' britannia would be classed as Bullion, because it hasnt got any additional value added on for rarity, and also because its traded / sold close to spot price. is that about right? (which would make my batch of 2009 soveriegns that ive just grabbed also classed as bullion?)

https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/gold-coins/britannia-1oz-gold-coin/britannia-1oz-gold-coin/

therfore on the same terms, a 1oz Queens Beast series coin is NOT bullion, as its trading at a high markup to spot price, as it forms part of a collection and has numisic value?

https://www.royalmintbullion.com/Products/Queens-Beasts/Gold/QB1801U

 

 

[mr-dead]

9 minutes ago, Pritchard said:

@kimchi 

thanks.

right so for example, this 'generic' britannia would be classed as Bullion, because it hasnt got any additional value added on for rarity, and also because its traded / sold close to spot price. is that about right? (which would make my batch of 2009 soveriegns that ive just grabbed also classed as bullion?)

https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/gold-coins/britannia-1oz-gold-coin/britannia-1oz-gold-coin/

therfore on the same terms, a 1oz Queens Beast series coin is NOT bullion, as its trading at a high markup to spot price, as it forms part of a collection and has numisic value?

https://www.royalmintbullion.com/Products/Queens-Beasts/Gold/QB1801U

 

Bullion = value based purely on gold content covers coins like maples, Krugerrands, sovereigns, standard design Britannias etc.

Semi numi = bullion but with a slightly higher premium due to collectabilty/lower mintages e.g. Panda's, queens beast, unique design year sovereigns/Britannias

Proof = Highest quality finish with presentation box / certificates + low mintage.  Usually the highest premium above spot gold value.

You can see the difference between a proof and bullion queens beast below.  Bullion comes lose in a tube, proof you get a posh box and a high quality finish

1oz gold proof costs £1800, 1oz gold bullion around £960

[Groundup]

There is a bullion  queen's beast 

There is also a proof queen's beast

One is at a premium (proof)

One is at a near spot price

[kimchi]

28 minutes ago, Pritchard said:

@kimchi 

thanks.

right so for example, this 'generic' britannia would be classed as Bullion, because it hasnt got any additional value added on for rarity, and also because its traded / sold close to spot price. is that about right? (which would make my batch of 2009 soveriegns that ive just grabbed also classed as bullion?)

https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/gold-coins/britannia-1oz-gold-coin/britannia-1oz-gold-coin/

therfore on the same terms, a 1oz Queens Beast series coin is NOT bullion, as its trading at a high markup to spot price, as it forms part of a collection and has numisic value?

https://www.royalmintbullion.com/Products/Queens-Beasts/Gold/QB1801U

 

 

Yes the 'best value' Brits/Britannias (same thing) on that website are the bullion ones. Like I said though, if you have a specific year in mind they may try to accommodate you if you phone up and they have a variety of stock

Also if buying more than an ounce or two always try to get a discount - can't hurt! If they won't do it shop around - someone else probably can! But stick to trusted dealers.

I don't think there is any premium on bullion Brits that's justified. The 2017 Anniversary design (not sure of mintage) I would like but I'm not paying more for. This year's Oriental Border had a slight premium initially I would have gone for if I'd had the cash at the time, but now they are sold out at 5000 mintage I find the premium unreasonable. Time will tell if they justify much of a premium at all, but my feeling is not really. Bullion Brits are bullion Brits - no-one collects them as such - the Oriental Border is just and extra nice one to have if you didn't pay over the odds imho.

The Queen's Beasts are slightly different. Unlike the 'boring' fairly predictable but safe bullion Brittanias, they have somewhat taken the market by storm and interested collectors. It's not a repetitive yearly issue - it's a unique design, and ten in the set. So even bullion has done well (surprised many actually) with a semi-numismatic premium above pure bullion. The problem with going for the bullion version is that due to the Royal Mint's terrible QC and production value on bullion you are taking a risk on the quality if you buy a raw coin, and if you buy one graded you will have to pay a premium.

[Pritchard]

@kimchi@mr-dead@groundup,

thank you. understood.

that also fills in a blank i had with proofs. i was trying to work out where these fit in.  

 

[Groundup]

Am I correct in saying a semi numismatic in the queen's beast coin range, is a bullion coin that has been graded on the secondary market that is the deemed to be of higher grade to its original bullion value.

[kimchi]

25 minutes ago, Groundup said:

Am I correct in saying a semi numismatic in the queen's beast coin range, is a bullion coin that has been graded on the secondary market that is the deemed to be of higher grade to its original bullion value.

Not really.

The coins are treated very differently. Proofs (with the much greater premium) are stamped multiple times (and then supposedly inspected very carefully, and carefully handled all away from the press to the fancy presentation boxes).

Bullion coins they will just line them up and bang - coin - bang - another one, and just chuck them in a pile ready to be taken away and sent out 'as is' (it's bullion!).

If you're lucky on the bullion you may get one that grades well, and the QBs 69/70 are doing very well so far. But the chances are far slimmer due to the nature of production, the way they are handled, the way they are sent out etc. So, you take a punt on a raw one, and depending on the dealer, you may not really be able to really complain or expect a replacement if you get a scratched one etc. Or, you may get lucky and get one of the few top examples. Being able to visit a shop and physically inspect the coins is a huge advantage here.

So a semi-numismatic on the Beasts can be raw (if you find a good one) or graded. If you find a good one raw you can have it graded and then hopefully add value. If you buy a graded one (should be a 69+) you will already be paying a premium and you would then have to hope that the premium increases more than the extra you paid as the series progresses. We are mid series now so it's a bit of an interesting time and perhaps a turning point. None of us know, we just all know (for bullion) great examples have done well so far and the series has lit up interest like few other bullion series (and the Proofs are so far doing well to)! It's a bit of an anomaly as a bullion issue then.

Hope that helps?

[Goldmick]

Hi and welcome m8. Nice pick up with the sovereign.s its good there all in mint wrappers. The q.b. coins are very nice ive been lucky with my bullion ones ive sent them off for grading at ngc and so far got ms69. But the 1/4 gold bullion coins are great coins