Die Polish or Scratches?

[SilverJacks]

Hi guys.
Any opinions welcome.
I think the lines look raised but the photos seem easier to judge than looking through loupe..
Will likely submit to NGC in the coming weeks.

[Petra]

Can’t you hold it at an angle whilst looking through your loupe and then move side to side / up and down to check the scratches? Should be able to then see them better. At the moment, looking at your pictures, to me it just looks like someone has had a Brillo pad out🤔⛄️

[Sovhead]

The “fields” on the coin having scratches they cannot be raised.

[paulmerton]

Can't really tell from these photos, but if the lines go all the way up to the edge of the incuse lettering instead of falling slightly short then that would be indicative of it being a scratched coin.

If the die were scratched from being polished, then the scratches would have to stop slightly short of the lettering as those parts stick out on the die.

 

[SilverJacks]

31 minutes ago, Petra said:

Can’t you hold it at an angle whilst looking through your loupe and then move side to side / up and down to check the scratches?

I'll take more pics in daylight tomorrow. I thought I had daylight pics saved but must've deleted them. From some angles the lines are not visible, from others, very prominent, glistens in the light.

On the plus side, it seems to have patina and lustre, which gives me hope. I just can't tell for sure if the lines are incuse or raised. Some of them look raised for sure, then some fill me with doubt.

Appreciate everyone's thoughts thanks guys

 

[paulmerton]

Without knowing whether the scratches are incuse or raised on the coin, this bit makes me think it can only be a scratched coin rather than a scratched die, as rough die polishing wouldn't cause the straight line to go all the way up to the eagle's neck (the outline of which is raised on the die). You'd also expect to see similar scratches in the valleys of the incuse features on the coin if the die had been scratched in that area.

[SilverJacks]

Interesting points @paulmerton. If I'm not mistaken, is this the point you are making?

With the average coin, die polish lines stop at the relief because the tool only touches the fields of the die. But with this incuse coin, (and raised reliefs on the die) the tool should at least butt up against the edges of the relief, leaving similarly pronounced lines on the valleys of the eagles chest?

[paulmerton]

40 minutes ago, SilverJacks said:

Interesting points @paulmerton. If I'm not mistaken, is this the point you are making?

With the average coin, die polish lines stop at the relief because the tool only touches the fields of the die. But with this incuse coin, (and raised reliefs on the die) the tool should at least butt up against the edges of the relief, leaving similarly pronounced lines on the valleys of the eagles chest?

It's more that - particularly around lettering - there will be the small areas highlighted with red circles that won't be reachable by the polishing stick/cloth. The incuse design might also be affected if not careful.

 

[SilverJacks]

16 minutes ago, paulmerton said:

It's more that - particularly around lettering - there will be the small areas highlighted with red circles that won't be reachable by the polishing stick/cloth. The incuse design might also be affected if not careful.

 

Got ya. Nice diagram also. I do hope you're wrong though 😂

[paulmerton]

2 minutes ago, SilverJacks said:

Got ya. Nice diagram also. I do hope you're wrong though 😂

You never know, it could always be both  

[SilverJacks]

Admittedly, it would have to be some intricate method to get in those edges ☹️

But the optimist in me has not abandoned hope just yet. Might the presence of these lines (if that’s what they are) in the deepest areas of the relief suggest that polishing did occur… 🙂

 

[paulmerton]

8 minutes ago, SilverJacks said:

Admittedly, it would have to be some intricate method to get in those edges ☹️

But the optimist in me has not abandoned hope just yet. Might the presence of these lines (if that’s what they are) in the deepest areas of the relief suggest that polishing did occur… 🙂

 

No idea to be honest from that quality of photo.

[SilverJacks]

I'll try and get better ones in daylight tomorrow. In the meantime we could always add more circles  😂

[SilverJacks]

[SilverJacks]

Not sure those pics make any difference for judging.

Pics are with a phone (fully zoomed) and a 10x loupe. Lines are not visible unless they catch the light at the right angle.

As for judging whether they are raised or not, the pics are a better indicator than looking through a loupe, to me anyway.

For what it's worth, I'll post NGC results soon as possible, probably Feb/March

 

[paulmerton]

I'll await to see what happens but my bet would be on a scratched coin from those pics.

Still a nice coin either way.

[Britannia47]

@SilverJacks Excerpts from Mike Fuljenz - ‘Indian Gold Coins of the 20th Century.’ Expect you know all this…..

 

[SilverJacks]

@Britannia47 it’s always nice to get the book out. 
Do you have any thoughts on these lines? 

[Britannia47]

11 hours ago, SilverJacks said:

@Britannia47 it’s always nice to get the book out. 
Do you have any thoughts on these lines? 

Not really, but like you, noticed the parallel scratches in front of the arrow tips. Best guess would be a rough or careless cleaning swipe across the coin.

The Mike Fuljenz books I use are merely for reference, and to help others. He gave them to me (signed copies!) at ‘Universal Coin & Bullion’ in Beaumont, Texas, a few years back, and is a known authority.

Still a nice coin, so good luck…..

 

[Ignorant]

My guess would be “details cleaned.” Fields are covered in parallel scratches except in the hard to get places like between the writing and the eagle’s talons.

[SilverJacks]

I may be clutching at straws but I'm still clinging too the hope that those lines are raised. Some of them, I am convinced are raised, but admittedly could be ridges of moved metal or just me convincing myself.

I'm starting to see lines when I close my eyes now 😵

 

[Petra]

I suppose some irony here that without the ultra close up pictures the coin looked at when held in hand looks great?🤔🤔

[SilverJacks]

4 minutes ago, Petra said:

I suppose some irony here that without the ultra close up pictures the coin looked at when held in hand looks great?🤔🤔

The lines catch the light with or without a loupe. But are not visible when looking across them. They are very subtle even though they interact with light in a prominent way.

I have just ordered a x60 loupe.  Should be with me Friday 😂

[Petra]

33 minutes ago, SilverJacks said:

The lines catch the light with or without a loupe. But are not visible when looking across them. They are very subtle even though they interact with light in a prominent way.

I have just ordered a x60 loupe.  Should be with me Friday 😂

I have a 1/20 gold Britannia from the Trial of the Pyx…. under an ordinary glass it looked nearly mint, however, I got it slabbed and the magnified pictures they sent back made it look like it had been rattling around in a bag of change for days!🤔😮

[SilverJacks]