Illyrian silver drachma

[Blacksmith876]

Hi all, I recently went on holiday to Montenegro and stayed in Budva.

Its an amazing place with a walled town which was a Roman province and later a Venetian town which is what most of the architecture now is from.

I really wanted to find some coins and discovered an amazing antique shop with hundreds of coins from all over the world within the walled city on our last night.

I brought a couple of Montenegrin coins more for a memory of the holiday than anything else but also saw a rough looking Illyrian silver drachma which I decided to buy despite my ignorance of ancient coins because I love history.

Having only brought a few Roman Denari my knowledge of ancients is very limited and a quick search didn't find anything about the value of this coin but it only cost me 50 Euros and is a good memory.

I wanted to buy a lot more. There were even some coins from Nazi Germany with the swastika which I have heard are rare as well as coins from the region and across the world. To me it looked like the man running the shop may have inherited them as he didn't seem too interested in the history but I could be wrong.

Can anyone tell me more about this coin? I may go back to Budva but next time will hit the shop up with more knowledge as I didn't expect to come across such a treasure trove so did no research before buying.

Any information about this, Montenegro or anything else mentioned would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

 

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Blacksmith876

[Petra]

There appears to be quite a few for sale, however, not as damaged as yours. I think you still got a great deal and for a coin from around 48bc, it’s not done too badly. Looks great.🤔😮

[Blacksmith876]

Just now, Petra said:

There appears to be quite a few for sale, however, not as damaged as yours. I think you still got a great deal and for a coin from around 48bc, it’s not done too badly. Looks great.🤔😮

I did find some when I did a quick search which made me think that there were a lot out there. Funnily enough I came across a number of them which seemed to have pieces missing from the edge (I'm not sure if there is a reason for this damage?)

I think its crazy that we can buy ancient coins for such a low price. When I started stacking I thought ancient coins were a thing for the super wealthy. I guess we are fortunate that so many are out there which keeps the price accessible. 

[flyingveepixie]

18 hours ago, Blacksmith876 said:

did find some when I did a quick search which made me think that there were a lot out there. Funnily enough I came across a number of them which seemed to have pieces missing from the edge (I'm not sure if there is a reason for this damage?)

That bit cut out of the edge ....   Currency debasement in the form of coin clipping, which was the removal of part of the coin by officialdom or businesses, for any number of reasons : entrance fee to the gladiatorial games, income tax, the cost of a loaf of bread or a handful of Egyptian grain, forced bail-in to fund public spending, or funding of the legions for the invasion of some far flung land - or whatever, but which ultimately ended up in huge devaluation of the currency.  It was rife throughout the time of the Roman empire, and I believe other empires as well. I'm unsure if it was also practiced by the Macedonians, but from memory I think Illyria was part of both the Macedonian and Roman empires, who diluted their currencies to such an extent to fund public works, government spending etc, that their empires eventually collapsed because of induced hyperinflation and other side effects. Their currencies were initially produced from precious metals, namely silver, but occasionally from gold, but ended up as base metals or weak alloys of silver or copper. Eventual Result : inflation, hyperinflation, and eventual collapse of the empire... It's happening in the Western world right now but you just can't see it because it's based on numbers on a computer screen rather than physical coinage with bits cut out, although if we extrapolate a bit, it's an easy enough thing to observe the old pre-1947 UK coins which were made with a high silver content, (even higher for pre-1920 coins) and compare them with the worthless cupro-nickel alloys of today...Same thing - currency debasement, and we can all see the result of it in the vastly increased cost of living. (6.7%...LMFAO..😂🤣)

It's very interesting that you can find a shop in Montenegro which deals in such ancient coinage - I've never even heard of Budva but my ears have pricked up somewhat in interest.  I may visit that country myself one day soon as I've heard lots of good things about it and I know it was never touched by the Yugoslavian war, although I hear there is massive corruption there, thanks to Russian gangsterism, even more so than in the UK...🤔

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by flyingveepixie

[Blacksmith876]

4 hours ago, flyingveepixie said:

That bit cut out of the edge ....   Currency debasement in the form of coin clipping, which was the removal of part of the coin by officialdom or businesses, for any number of reasons : entrance fee to the gladiatorial games, income tax, the cost of a loaf of bread or a handful of Egyptian grain, forced bail-in to fund public spending, or funding of the legions for the invasion of some far flung land - or whatever, but which ultimately ended up in huge devaluation of the currency.  It was rife throughout the time of the Roman empire, and I believe other empires as well, who diluted their currencies to such an extent to fund public works, government spending etc, that their empires eventually collapsed because of induced hyperinflation and other reasons. The currencies were initially produced from precious metals, namely silver, but occasionally from gold, but ended up as base metals or weak alloys of silver or copper. Eventual Result : inflation, hyperinflation, and eventual collapse of the empire... It's happening in the Western world right now but you just can't see it because it's based on numbers on a computer screen rather than physical coinage with bits cut out, although if we extrapolate a bit, it's an easy enough thing to observe the old pre-1947 UK coins which were made with a high silver content, (even higher for pre-1920 coins) and compare them with the worthless cupro-nickel alloys of today...Same thing - currency debasement, and we can all see the result of it in the vastly increased cost of living. (6.7%...LMFAO..😂🤣)

It's very interesting that you can find a shop in Montenegro which deals in such ancient coinage - I've never even heard of Budva but my ears have pricked up somewhat in interest.  I may visit that country myself one day soon as I've heard lots of good things about it and I know it was never touched by the Yugoslavian war, although I hear there is massive corruption there, thanks to Russian gangsterism, even more so than in the UK...🤔

 

 

Than you, I had heard of this but had no idea it was so widespread. It adds some nice charm to what I thought was a defect!

Montenegro is an interesting country. I follow a business on YouTube called 'Nomad Capitalist' who specialise in helping people relocate to more tax efficient countries and they recently have been recommending Montenegro because being a former communist nation the people remember how awful it was and so are embracing capitalism while still keeping a more relaxed way of life.

I was shocked to discover that income tax for people and businesses is only 9% (13% is the maximum once you get to over £500K Euros) and I am considering moving there in the future. I worked out recently that 70% of everything I earn goes to paying tax in some form. Over there earning the same income working for myself I would effectively be earning more than double just because of the tax. Also public services were a lot better than where I live in the UK, there was far less crime (even in the rougher areas we visited) and the people were very friendly and had much better communities. The corruption is a concern but it seems to be far more free than the UK is and better than places like Bali or Thailand where I have also considered moving to but ruled out.

Budva has ancient Roman ruins right outside the walled town so I imagine there are a lot of coins that are found locally but the lack of any organised dealers seems to mean that they end up staying in these antique stores to be bought by the occasional tourist who has an interest in coins. I felt like if I had more time to research I could have made a great profit but I found the shop as it was due to close on our last night. The shop had a lot of coins from the Bosnian war period from all sides. The shopkeeper had large coin books full with prices written on and was very happy to sell so a professional could probably do very well there while also making him very happy also.

The old town is definitely worth a visit, next time I'll book an apartment in the town. It would be like staying in a time capsule because the town really felt like you were back 500 years in the past.

[flyingveepixie]

I've watched a couple of that chap's videos too and found them interesting.  I've spent some considerable time in Yugoslavia, namely Bosnia and Kosovo, and Montenegro was always a popular topic of discussion as a holiday destination among both the Brits and the locals we worked with, hence my own interest. I was recently in Hungary scoping out the possibilities there for a possible future move, and as with your experience in Montenegro I found it to be more relaxed and with a general ambience of greater freedom and not having to watch every word you say than in the UK, although I have it on good authority that the bureaucracy there can be difficult. I didn't think to ask about taxation levels but have added it to my list of things to ask about.  I imagine Montenegro will be the same in the sense of tricky bureaucracy as most of the old countries seem to follow a similar format. I have been tentatively planning a longer visit to Eastern Europe next year to take in Slovenia and possibly Hungary again, with Serbia and Romania as more remote possibilities if time allows, but based on what you say as well as other stories I have heard, I might change my plans to miss out Romania and go to Montenegro instead..😄

Edited November 2, 2023 by flyingveepixie

[CollectForFun]

What a great story @Blacksmith876, thanks for sharing! If you wish to find out more about your coin, you may check out the list of similar coins on offer on https://www.ma-shops.com/shops/search.php?searchstr=Illyria+Drachme and compare them with your coin. Interesting reading about this coin type can also be found here https://asklapiadas.ancients.info/05a1DrGen.html. Enjoy your great coin! 🙂

[Blacksmith876]

16 hours ago, flyingveepixie said:

I've watched a couple of that chap's videos too and found them interesting.  I've spent some considerable time in Yugoslavia, namely Bosnia and Kosovo, and Montenegro was always a popular topic of discussion as a holiday destination among both the Brits and the locals we worked with, hence my own interest. I was recently in Hungary scoping out the possibilities there for a possible future move, and as with your experience in Montenegro I found it to be more relaxed and with a general ambience of greater freedom and not having to watch every word you say than in the UK, although I have it on good authority that the bureaucracy there can be difficult. I didn't think to ask about taxation levels but have added it to my list of things to ask about.  I imagine Montenegro will be the same in the sense of tricky bureaucracy as most of the old countries seem to follow a similar format. I have been tentatively planning a longer visit to Eastern Europe next year to take in Slovenia and possibly Hungary again, with Serbia and Romania as more remote possibilities if time allows, but based on what you say as well as other stories I have heard, I might change my plans to miss out Romania and go to Montenegro instead..😄

Thank you for your reply. I myself am going through a similar journey. I work as a head hunter working mostly with start ups and political correctness is a big issue which is not getting much better but tax and economic freedom are also the big drivers for me as the UK seems to be at war with small business owners. I Would service European and US businesses but want to work from somewhere in Europe so I'm at the start of the journey that it sounds like you are on.

Have you looked at Poland at all and so far which countries have been your favourites? I saw nomad capitalist recommending Montenegro recently due to tax advantages and ease of starting a business. To me it seems like they are trying to open the door to foreign money and seem to want to attract investment to the country so it being in the earlier stages of development makes me think it could be a good place when looking forward. 

Slovenia and Hungary are both places I wanted to consider but perhaps Romania is worth looking at as well? One thing I liked about Montenegro was that they treat the dogs and cats in the street very well with a lot of charities which says a lot about the people culturally but I think my end game would be starting a charity like that when I get to older age so I liked that a lot. I think its definitely worth checking out, there are some cheap properties there in amazing locations but the typical modern, luxury beach apartments are starting to be built at scale which is another plus since towns like Budva seem to be rapidly developing and with that property prices should appreciate nicely.

Have you considered Portugal, Malta or Gibraltar at all? 

 

[flyingveepixie]

Portugal would be too hot for us in the summer. We had a place for 16 years in the south of Italy and through July and August the heat was unbearable. I had never considered the possibility of Malta or Gibraltar but I used to work in Kosovo with a guy who lived in Cyprus and he loved it.  Poland is a definite option for us and I'm keen to have a look at Romania, but my wife is a bit worried about the Roma population there, although there are plenty of them in Hungary too - I think around 150 000, and enclaves of them in every other Eastern European country.  In Eastern Europe you're spoiled for choice as they're all pleasant countries to be in with beautiful landscapes and reasonable people - very few lunatics, next to no illegals in Hungary, and considerably less of the divisive brainwashing tittle-tattle that goes on in the west to turn us all against each other.

Slovenia is the current next-on-the-list-favourite for both of us, and I have a smattering of the language which would be a help to us, but as far as I'm concerned I'm not choosy and would happily look for a place in Hungary without further ado - although the Hungarian language is unlike anything you've ever heard.  Our host there told us it was a distant relative of Finnish and Estonian..!    Hungary ticked all of my boxes and I thought it was fantastic. In spite of looking at it with my most critical eye, I couldn't find anything I didn't like about it. We even spotted an eagle up in the hills..!    I didn't see any DIY shops there, but I admit I wasn't really looking and we spent most of our time there in the woods and the hills,  but it has everything you need in the way of supermarkets Lidl, Aldi etc, unlike Italy - I could write a book about that place lol, although to be fair Italy slowly dragged itself slightly into the modern world in the 16 years I spent there. All the utilities and services are readily supplied and work efficiently in Hungary, again unlike Italy where in my experience nothing seemed to work, and every process was held up by endless and pointless bureaucracy, and quality kit like you would readily find here in any of the DIY shops was difficult to find and very expensive. I remember a particular incident in my early days there when I purchased a spade and the first time I tried to use it, it snapped. That kind of thing became commonplace, and I probably wouldn't go back to Italy for the above and some other reasons, but I know a lot of people who like it there and wouldn't swap it.

Bosnia is one of the most beautiful countries I've spent lengthy time in with rolling hills and dense forests, and I got on well with the people, although when I was there it was very soon after the war and the country was broken. I spent almost all of my time there in Republica Srpska which is the Serb part of Bosnia, and I believe there is still a big issue of unexploded ordnance there in the form of landmines. It was rumoured during my time there that there were anything up to 1 million undiscovered landmines littering the countryside, and walking anywhere where there was long grass was a big no-no at the time.  Things may have changed since then - I don't know.

Croatia is an OK country too if you look along the very long and rugged coastline, although outside of Split I haven't spent a great deal of time there. The 3-4 hour drive from Banja Luka (Bosnia) up to Zagreb is generally flat and uninteresting and looks pretty much what I suspect the Hungarian plain would look like too.  Very flat and long, and boring.   

Kosovo is similar in landscape to Bosnia but even more broken down, or at least it was 20 years ago. There is still ethic tension there between the Serbs and the Albanians who are in the majority. Pristina is a tip, and during my time there was heavily polluted from the nearby power station which burned lignite and you could smell the stuff in the air all the time. There were power cuts every day.  Kosovo is about 95% muslim. I wouldn't go there to live.

I lived in Bavaria on the Austrian border for 5 years in the 1980s.  Beautiful, and so perfect it looks like a film set, but you would need to be a zillionaire to move there. I like the Austrian Tyrol too, but as with Bavaria it would be way too expensive to move there.

[Blacksmith876]

On 03/11/2023 at 08:18, flyingveepixie said:

I purchased a spade and the first time I tried to use it, it snapped. That kind of thing became commonplace, and I probably wouldn't go back to Italy for the above and some other reasons, but I know a lot of people who like it there and wouldn't swap it.

 

That's funny that you mention that because I pointed out the old style method of blacksmithing that was used to connect the spade head to the wooden shaft when we walked past builders in Montenegro and I told my partner how that connection is an old method which is more effective as more surface area connects with the shaft unlike in the UK where spades are made to break quickly so you  buy a new one. I noticed this when I was in Berlin as well when the street workers had these same long handled shovels which were far better quality.

What you have said it exactly my thoughts with a move. People are so much more pleasant and not so closed minded like in the UK. I find that everyone seems to think that they know everything and its getting worse as people have such little tolerance for each others opinions. I've never noticed this abroad (except in the US)

That is very interesting to hear. I loved Austria but like you say the cost is excessive. I found Chambery to be a lot cheaper than I expected but France isn't the top of my list due more to politics and other issues but I would love to find somewhere mountainous with a good cost of living as well with the modern services like you mentioned. I appreciate the overviews, definitely has given me a lot of food for thought!