Preference for 999 fine? and Do silver bars get milk spots?

[artalien]

Hello TSF, I know it isn't possible to justify a preference by anything other than another preference but: why do you prefer 999 fine? Is this a new fashion or has it been going on for a while? Personally I like the harder stuff because it isn't so easy to damage, it's also usually closer to spot.

I know sovereigns still do well but Krugs don't seem to move very fast on TSF. The preference for fine seems to affect both silver and gold. Any comments very welcome.

Edited December 30, 2023 by artalien
Added milk spot Q

[Silverlocks]

I think 1oz Krugs are slow to move because 1oz coins are too much for most folks, and Krugs aren't anything special as a design, plus no CGT advantages like Brits or Sovs.  1/4oz ones seem to move fine if the premiums are reasonable, but you see far more sovs or even 1/4oz Brits come through TSF than other 1/4 oz coins like Krugs or Maples.

1oz Krugs made sense in the 1970s when the price of gold was relatively much cheaper, but these days the price of gold is much higher.  If gold dropped to (say) £1,000/oz then 1oz coins would be much more popular (and Wonger would be truly insufferable).  At some point the markets will correct and take the pressure off gold, so we may see it soften.  As to whether it will soften enough to bring 1oz coins back into vogue, I have no idea.

As for .900/.917 coins, I like circulated sovs as you can handle them without damaging the coin, but you can stack fine gold coins easily enough and keep them in flips or caps. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Silverlocks

[HonestMoneyGoldSilver]

I'm very basic and like the colour of 9999 gold compared with Krugs or modern sovs

With silver the premiums on 800, 900 and 925 are lower with a few exceptions like perhaps US Constitutional and Britannias, but you can pick up a lot of it for around spot. If the silver market goes bananas and manufacturers start having trouble sourcing silver, they will prefer refined 999 or 9999 silver to sterling or 90%. The market has basically dictated a preference for 999 or 9999 silver and most modern coins and bars are 999/9999. I buy a fair bit of silver and I know I'm going to have to sell some of it one day, it seems 999+ will hold the premium and demand better than the others with a few exceptions

[artalien]

6 minutes ago, HonestMoneyGoldSilver said:

I'm very basic and like the colour of 9999 gold compared with Krugs or modern sovs

 

7 minutes ago, HonestMoneyGoldSilver said:

If the silver market goes bananas and manufacturers start having trouble sourcing silver, they will prefer refined 999 or 9999 silver to sterling or 90%

Silver does seem to be more impacted by the fine trend.

2 hours ago, Silverlocks said:

1/4oz ones seem to move fine if the premiums are reasonable,

I'm going to pay more attention to these sales because at present I have the idea that even a 1/10 krug will struggle unless the premium is much lower than say a brit or maple of the same size.

Currently there are sterling silver bars for sale on TSF at basically spot plus delivery but they are not flying out the door. Do you agree with the basic premise that in general people prefer fine over not so fine?

[artalien]

I also have another question about silver which I might as well add here.

Are silver bars ever affected by milk spotting?

[Silverlocks]

2 minutes ago, artalien said:

Currently there are sterling silver bars for sale on TSF at basically spot plus delivery but they are not flying out the door. Do you agree with the basic premise that in general people prefer fine over not so fine?

It depends.

For random off-brand bars or medallions, sterling silver is likely a bit of a turn off.  I think it's (with some justification) regarded as not bullion.  You would have to refine it to use it as bullion, which will have a negative effect on its scrap value.  Similar issues apply with jewellery in silver or carat gold.

Having said this, coins with numismatic value will still carry their premium as long as the demand from collectors exists.  This means that silver dollars, crowns or other silver coinage can have a value that is quite disconnected from the purity or melt value of the metal.

.900 of .917 gold coins are a slightly different matter.  The fine gold weight of the coins drives their value to a much greater extent than silver, unless the coin is very rare.  Some coins can have greater or lesser premiums over spot as collectibles, but this is largely a function of the market conditions, rarity and demand of the coin as a collectible.  As a generalisation, the value of the gold is a much higher portion of the value than it is with silver coins, which can trade at 10, 20 or more times the melt value of the metal.

 

[Silverlocks]

14 hours ago, artalien said:

I also have another question about silver which I might as well add here.

Are silver bars ever affected by milk spotting?

Minted bars are really just oblong coins and made using essentially the same process   Milk spotting is caused by borax residue reacting with the surface of the metal, so a minted bar could develop milk spotting in the same way as coins do.  Cast bars are normally made by putting a measured amount of silver shot into a mould and heating it in a furnace, so this process is not prone to milk spotting.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Silverlocks

[artalien]

1 minute ago, Silverlocks said:

Minted bars are essentially just oblong coins and made using the same process as coins. 

What would be an example of a minted bar please? A Royal Canadian Mint 10 oz slab? Very interesting post mate, thanks.

6 minutes ago, Silverlocks said:

You would have to refine it to use it as bullion, which will have a negative effect on its scrap value.

Good reason. Great post guys, appreciated.

[artalien]

Anyone got a milk spotted bar? Can we get a pic please?

[Silverlocks]

3 minutes ago, artalien said:

What would be an example of a minted bar please? A Royal Canadian Mint 10 oz slab? Very interesting post mate, thanks.

Yes, those are minted.  Other examples include the Perth Mint 1oz Dragon bars, or the 1oz Coronation bar, or pretty much any gold or silver bar in an assay card.  I've seen RCM minted bars up to 100 oz, so the punch that makes the planchets for those must be a fairly impressive piece of hardware. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Silverlocks