Spink Vs NGC

[Simonz]

Just joined your illustrious forum so please forgive any newbie faux pas. Recent change in circumstances has allowed me some time and $ to pursue this new hobby so am on a steep but fascinating learning curve. I thought you might be interested to hear about my ongoing experience from a recent purchase, apologies for the length of this essay but I do think Spink have created a serious issue!

Found myself drawn to the tactile history of Guineas and after sitting on the sidelines of various auctions (Guineas are very thin on the ground in my location!) I took the plunge and managed to win an Ellerby Hoard coin at the Spink auction. Was initially a bit disappointed that they were all going to be slabbed, they are all had lots of 'character' and none of them were going to get high grades, smacked a little of Spink trying to appeal to US market? They're a business and trying to get the best result, but I think its come back to bite them!

I also happened to be in London the week prior to the auction so requested to go and view the coins, "You will be most welcome to view the Ellerby sale this week at your convenience". Arrived at their office to be told the coins were "not really in a viewable state"! 

Was then further surprised and disappointed when the invoice arrived, post auction, by the revelation that they didn't have the coins! "PLEASE NOTE THAT ALL LOTS ARE CURRENTLY WITH NGC FOR ELLERBY HOARD LABELLING PURPOSES. WE EXPECT THE COINS TO BE RETURNED TO US BEFORE THE END OF OCTOBER" It sounds like Spink sent coins for grading prior to the auction and they came back in standard holders, Spink had requested a special 'Ellerby Hoard' label so they were returned to NGC, again prior to the auction.

Mid November and no news, so chased them along with an email. Received a very long apologetic reply that was very ambiguous about who was at fault, but one comment seemed to suggest the root cause of the problem; "the conversion of ‘Details’ to ‘Genuine’ is confounding NGC's internal processes"

Are Spink trying to tell NGC how to grade coins? Surely this would corrupt the whole concept of consistent coin grading? Will be interesting to see how this pans out, if NGC comply will they still include any details issues, cleaning, environmental wear etc? All the coins were listed at the auction with normal grading i.e. 'details' coins were listed as such, so buyers knew what they were bidding on. I will be surprised if NGC comply as it will set a precedent for other large auction houses to tell them how to grade and erode consumer confidence? I'm 50/50 on whether to break it out of the slab anyway, hate them! if it ever arrives!

Interested in your views on grading and this 'battle of the titans'?

 

 

[CollectForFun]

First of all congratulations on your purchase! Is that the coin you won? Definitely a nice foundation of your (hopefully) future collection!

As regards slabbing of these coins, I noticed that Spink does this often even for not so special coins and quite likely this is to appeal to US market, but here it surely serves also another purpose, that is, to guarantee the Ellerby Hoard origin. Therefore I think it's only positive if they sent the coins for relabelling and NGC's special "Ellerby Area Hoard" label looks really nice! So I would be happy about that, even if it means delays, which of course is not ideal.

Regarding "the conversion of ‘Details’ to ‘Genuine’" I am not very sure what they mean, as NGC does not have 'Genuine' labels to my knowledge. If a coin gets Details grade, it is still geniune, the same genuine as if it got a regular numerical grade. So, not sure what that is about.

Edit: I have just realised NGC has 'Genuine' labels for El Cazador shipwreck coins and likely also for other such coins where their provenance is important. On those labels they do not state grade, just certify the provenance. So presumably that's what it's about - NGC already assigned Details grade to some of those coins but on the final Ellerby Hoard labels they will not mention Details grade, just Genuine?

Edited November 18, 2022 by CollectForFun

[Simonz]

6 hours ago, CollectForFun said:

First of all congratulations on your purchase! Is that the coin you won? Definitely a nice foundation of your (hopefully) future collection!

As regards slabbing of these coins, I noticed that Spink does this often even for not so special coins and quite likely this is to appeal to US market, but here it surely serves also another purpose, that is, to guarantee the Ellerby Hoard origin. Therefore I think it's only positive if they sent the coins for relabelling and NGC's special "Ellerby Area Hoard" label looks really nice! So I would be happy about that, even if it means delays, which of course is not ideal.

Regarding "the conversion of ‘Details’ to ‘Genuine’" I am not very sure what they mean, as NGC does not have 'Genuine' labels to my knowledge. If a coin gets Details grade, it is still geniune, the same genuine as if it got a regular numerical grade. So, not sure what that is about.

Edit: I have just realised NGC has 'Genuine' labels for El Cazador shipwreck coins and likely also for other such coins where their provenance is important. On those labels they do not state grade, just certify the provenance. So presumably that's what it's about - NGC already assigned Details grade to some of those coins but on the final Ellerby Hoard labels they will not mention Details grade, just Genuine?

Thanks for your reply. Yes was super happy to win that coin, was amazing to see the prices some of them went for and was losing hope.

Doesn't that smack of deliberate deception? They are trying to hide information about an item where knowledge is everything. I passed over several 'details' coins at the auction and now no one will know what 'issue' those coins have. Yes you can see 'graffiti' and basic condition but many problems picked up at grading are much more ambiguous. Also they will presumably lose the letter grade? 'XF Details Cleaned' would have more value than 'F Details Cleaned' and now they will all be lumped together as 'Genuine'!?

The email from Spink also mentioned that 20% of the coins have already been collected by the buyers who did not want to wait for regrading, presumably most will be de-slabbed. I do like the design of the Hoard label and am now 80% likely to leave mine slabbed. Impossible to regain the provenance which is an important part of the history if they are de-slabbed.

Interested to see into the future, will every coin be slabbed? What 'style' of slab will become more of an issue than the coin. People are already re-slabbing old holders and I see that NGC is now introducing a '10-point NGCX' grading system!