passiveaggressive

6 hours ago, mr1030 said:

When I first started looking into Kinesis, one difficult point I had was coming to the realization that KVT have to be looked at as separate from the rest of the system.  All KVT's are is a funding token to get Kinesis up and running.  Think of it as venture capital, and KVT's as stock.  Kinesis needed 15k KVT tokens sold to launch the system and they have sold roughly 61k so far.  We have been told that there are some big whales waiting to buy the rest of the tokens, but the founders of the company have held off doing so because they wanted as many individuals to buy KVT's as possible as they are then invested in the idea and would be it's biggest and most passionate promoters.  KVT ownership is not required to mint coins or participate in the system as a user.  So in that regard, it doesn't matter if there are 629 KVT owners, 5000, or 10 big whales buying all 300,000.  KVT owners are just investors in the company.

I understand, one doesn't beget the other. However you have to work with some numbers somewhere.

I don't know how Tether was funded so I'll take a stab and say most Tether holders aren't equity holders. This bodes well for Kinesis.

On the flip side surely Tether users know of this stable coin that has yields and actual auditing and the ability to buy into the actual system. Where are the nearly 3000 wanting to pick up KVTS?

Martlets said 627 but where does that info come from?

https://etherscan.io/token/0xdac17f958d2ee523a2206206994597c13d831ec7

Says 2884 holders?

231 holders (let's call it a 3rd) hold 10kvt or more. I'm impressed!

According to https://etherscan.io/token/0x3a859b9ea4998d344547283c7ce8ebc4abb77656

Kinesis now has 629 holders. That's positive!

Can someone please explain the tables on pg 33 of the blueprint by way of words and an example? Im thinking that to 'revolve' that $50k say 5 - 50! times a month is the province of high volume traders. I'm not understanding this correctly I'm sure. Thanks in advance.

Can someone please spell out the purpose of the wholesale currency? KWG and KWS? Is it just a beneficial price? ie ABX pick it up cheaper and pass through the savings or is there some actual function to it?

9 hours ago, Martlet said:

Tether is funded by major exchange(s) depositing funds with a bank and creating an amount on the Bitcoin blockchain using something called Omni protocol, so in theory its backed (its been controversial as to whether it really is 100%).  The reason for comparison is because its traded an awful lot on exchanges for other crypto currency giving a high amount of turnover.  That being the correct term, its not velocity as there is no actual produce or service, as used to measure velocity of money.  It served a purpose to show the potential of KAU as money, however imo led to overselling the idea because its not going to be used to trade $'00 millions of cypto every day.  With only ~627 holders I dont believe there is enough traction for this to work as it stands, even using funds to buy and circulate KAU.

With $61k KVT sold in what I am thinking are fairly small lots, could it be the case that Kinesis already has more than 627 holders and therefore could be said to be 'bigger' than Tether already on this thin metric? The assumption is built in that the KVT holders will be actual users of the system, not purely just KVT speculators.

3 hours ago, Groundup said:

That's the spirit son one more posative question answered.

Keep them coming.👍.        I trust you checked the kinesis telegram site out.There are many professional people on there, from all professions faithfully  scrutinizing kinesis.money. 

Yep

4 hours ago, Martlet said:

Thats about right.  The use of Tether and aims for KAU are quite different its not a good comparisons. 

The relatively high transaction fee will restrict that market, and their exchange is unlikely to have the volume to attract serious BTC trading.  The idea of holding in KAU instead of Tether is a good, just unlikely to generate significant turnover.   The main problem for KAU is obtaining the $800bn in year one to reach the projection.  After a number of years, it might build up to that sort of size, but from here thats too far.

What's the fee on Tether?

29 minutes ago, mr1030 said:

The Tether comparison is made as Tether is probably the best known so called stable coin.  And your right that Tether is used mostly by crypto traders to get in an out of other crypto's  when their price plunges, and then trade back in on the rise.  Kinesis is aiming at that market (as well as others).  Given the choice, would someone who is temporarily exiting the bit coin market due to a down market rather hold their dollars in Tether, or Kinesis and receive a yield while doing so?  And now that the KAU and KAG can be bought with Tether directly they have made it easier to do so.  Can convert directly to Kinesis from bit coin or tether.

Yes! Kinesis can be used as a part of a trading platform/strategy in crypto's. i guess it can be used as well for trading stocks as a temporary safe haven but with the slight complication of having to convert in and out but I guess it's just keystrokes in another system to get it in (transfer from my bank to Kinesis and then I have to go to Kinesis and mint?).

It's opening my eyes to other uses (not just the way I think I would use it)!

I want to look at transaction assumptions made on pg 39 of the blueprint.

Average Market Capitalization (USD) 7,824,194,352 45,862,973,550 105,595,759,080 233,394,791,580 384,265,166,400
Velocity 1 30% 30% 30% 30% 30%
Days in Year 365 365 365 365 365
Yearly Volume (USD) 856,749,281,544 5,021,995,603,725 11,562,735,619,260 25,556,729,678,010 42,077,035,720,800
Transaction Fee % 0.45% 0.45% 0.45% 0.45% 0.45%
Transactions Fees (USD) 3,855,371,767 22,598,980,217 52,032,310,287 115,005,283,551 189,346,660,744
Commercial Centre Transactions
Share of Total Transactions (%) 0.5% 1.0% 2.0% 3.0% 3.0%
Share of Total Transactions ($) 4,283,746,408 50,219,956,037 231,254,712,385 766,701,890,340 1,262,311,071,624
Average Commission Rate 5% 5% 5% 5% 5%
Total Commission Income 214,187,320 2,510,997,802 11,562,735,619 38,335,094,517 63,115,553,581
KVT Share % 20% 20% 20% 20% 20%
KVT Transaction Revenue (USD) 771,074,353 4,519,796,043 10,406,462,057 23,001,056,710 37,869,332,149
KVT Commission Revenue (USD) 42,837,464 502,199,560 2,312,547,124 7,667,018,903 12,623,110,716
Projected KVT Revenue (USD) 813,911,817 5,021,995,604 12,719,009,181 30,668,075,614 50,492,442,865
KVT Issued 300,000 300,000 300,000 300,000 300,000
Per KVT 2,713.04 16,739.99 42,396.70 102,226.92 168,308.14
Cost per KVT 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000
Yield
NPV* (5% Discount rate)
271.30% 1674.00% 4239.67% 10222.69% 16830.81%
256,636.08

Below is from page 31 (Tether figures)

Jan 17, 2018 1.03 1.07 0.997739 1.01 5,588,840,000 1,671,280,000 334.40%

Looking at market cap in red, it shows an average market cap 4 x greater then Tethers. How is this justified? Having said that, the velocity value given (in blue) is 10x less for this day although average is somewhere between about 100 to 200% (ish). Given the large discrepancy on the velocity, is this recognition of what Martlet has said? 

Just to get this straight. On Jan 17 Tether had 1.67B USD in the bank (supposedly) and it got turned over 3.3x? That's A LOT of trading (buying and selling).

Is the Kinesis comparison saying I might have deposited say $50k and spend about $15k a year? If the system had 365 users this works out to a velocity of 30%

??

4 hours ago, Martlet said:

Tether is funded by major exchange(s) depositing funds with a bank and creating an amount on the Bitcoin blockchain using something called Omni protocol, so in theory its backed (its been controversial as to whether it really is 100%).  The reason for comparison is because its traded an awful lot on exchanges for other crypto currency giving a high amount of turnover.  That being the correct term, its not velocity as there is no actual produce or service, as used to measure velocity of money.  It served a purpose to show the potential of KAU as money, however imo led to overselling the idea because its not going to be used to trade $'00 millions of cypto every day.  With only ~627 holders I dont believe there is enough traction for this to work as it stands, even using funds to buy and circulate KAU.

Well done Martlet! Very good insight of the 627 holders. I like facts.

My understanding of what you just said.... KAU and KAG are touted as a means of moving fundsfor real world purposes. KAU / KAG transactions volumes are based on Tether transactions. However, Tether is only really being used in the crypto world by a few largeish players to buy and sell crypto - not sending money to ma and pa back home.

5 hours ago, Groundup said:

@passiveaggressive your thoughts on kinesis accepting tether as payment for KVT

I'm the wrong guy to ask. Part of my problem is that I'm not in the crypto space and I'm not qualified to answer. Sorry.

13 hours ago, Groundup said:

@passiveaggressive if your intention is to burst our bubble about kinesis it's not working. 

No! My intention is to understand what is being offered to evaluate risk. Ref my post on Telegram. The sheeple operate on Faith, Trust and being Positive of the Fed, BoJ, ECB, RBA etc etc and look where that got us.

The trouble with the blueprint is that the assumptions are not fully explained. So now I have to start asking questions. New post coming on that. I WANT to believe Kinesis is THE alternative. I WANT to buy KVT's but I NEED to be satisfied on some of the finer unexplained details.

13 hours ago, Groundup said:

Your questions are valid..

Answers have been given to you. You either accept them or you don't.. your choice. 

 

Faith is what we have

Trust is what we have

Positive is what we are

We're adults, we understand the risks... we do due diligence.. we only invest what we can afford to lose. 

If not kinesis who do you suggest is the best alternative.👊

 

 

9 hours ago, sixgun said:

Kinesis and Tether were compared b/c Tether is a good sized crypto which is backed (by the USD). Tether is being used as a means of exchange currency rather than a speculate investment like BTC. So a reasonable comparative would be Tether rather than BTC. The KAU and KAG coins are intended as everyday money (like Tether). Compare like with like as much as you can.

9 hours ago, sixgun said:

The KVT is not the coins. In 6 months time say, you could be minting, selling, spending, sending and trading - whatever you like with the Kinesis coins and never have even heard of a KVT. Accepted that is unlikely but you won't need to hold KVT's or know what they are.

I know but a decision to buy KVT is based on KAU / KAG turnover.

9 hours ago, sixgun said:

Neither of us know how Tether raised the cash to kick start Tether but that doesn't stop us using it. i agree if KVT's were a lot cheaper to buy, then more people would buy and it would in the beginning encourage more people to use the coins. This is a decision Kinesis has made to keep launch costs down.

You could sell your KAU's on the exchange and your gold is sold with the click of a mouse. Do a cash transfer and you are out. 

Your house isn't a secure vault. There are no armchairs for rings to go down the back of. The audit process is part of the logging in and out of gold/silver from the vaults. This is one of those question about a theoretically possible situation that doesn't happen. It would imply that KAU's were redeemed - say 20kg of gold and a larger amount was handed back. This is an issue with a bank - i come to withdraw $20 000 and they mistakenly give me $25 000. It never happened to me. Does it ever happen? it could do but gold bars more unlikely.

Good point.

9 hours ago, sixgun said:

Kinesis is not for everyone. Not having the resources is not the same as being put off by complexity.

9 hours ago, sixgun said:

Using a crypto wallet is a bit daunting before you start. Using an ATM machine is a bit daunting in the beginning. Kinesis can work with other currencies. If you don't want to use Kinesis that's fine but it doesn't stop me using my Kinesis to pay you in AUD.

mmm I thought I had to have a Kinesis account to receive your Kinesis for me to eventually cash out as AUD? That's what stops you. This goes back to the point of the employees who just want AUD and don't give a terrible about it going to zero cos they don't have any to worry about. Now, if we could get KAU / KAG to appear as AUD in say a CBA account (as you just implied) the doors would be blown off this sucker!

9 hours ago, sixgun said:

Yes dollar prices of gold have moved quite a bit over the decades. It is not like crypto which is volatile. And gold is at all time highs against the AUD. All fiat is guaranteed to go to zero. i would prefer my value in precious metal. It can pretty much be guaranteed not to go to zero. The other currencies fluctuate, the charts will show you how much. The main fluctuation is they all move down. They are all going to zero in the end.

Don't need to convert the converted! Just evaluating risks in the proposed alternatives.

9 hours ago, sixgun said:

This is something i have not taken any interest in. i will be spending Kinesis coins, selling those i get from the KVT and then using the USD to buy more gold/silver to mint. If the cryptocurrency market livens up i might get involved with BTC/ETH. Generally i will be staying out of fiat as much as reasonable. Kinesis will be holding some actual physical cash in some fiat currencies. i am not sure why but they will have their reasons.

I wonder if the fiat is audited as well? Don't need a Tetheresque fiasco even if it's just the side game. Best to keep Kinesis squeaky clean.

9 hours ago, sixgun said:

The point was, any system can be attacked. i think you believe Kinesis is a threat to dollar hegemony and b/c of that it has a big target on its back. Well for Kinesis to be a threat to USD hegemony then you are saying you believe it will be a massive success. Perhaps you should buy a KVT. 😎

Maybe I'll buy 10 soon and if the offer gets close to being fully subscribed I'll pick up 5 more. The research and understanding continues... 

13 hours ago, sixgun said:

I don't know what Tether did. Why does it matter what the 'Tether Velocity Token' was sold for, if it existed? The reason for the high price of the KVT is to cut  expenses. Doing Know Your Customer checks costs the same however much an investor puts in, so Kinesis has cut out those unable or unwilling to put $1000 into the system.

Cos Kinesis are the ones who have made the comparison to Tether on volume and velocity. These are in turn based to some extent on the user base. If you said that Tether had a similar capital raising I would find the other comparisons much easier to believe and KVT pricing and sales expectations also easier to swallow.

13 hours ago, sixgun said:

For small amounts of Kinesis you don't get to choose, but at the same time it may depend on how you got to have Kinesis coins. i bought 100g of gold at the Dubai hub. i will mint 100 KAU coins using that. Once i sell them, they are sold into the system. For me if you have enough cash to buy 100g gold and you want coins, then you should buy the gold in one of the vaults and mint with that.

The question goes to security of the gold. Let's say I bought in the US and a new socialist govt comes in making noise about wealth redistribution. Can I say "Please move my gold to Dubai"? I guess it would be a matter of converting back to gold and rebuying?

13 hours ago, sixgun said:

Well the issue of a large discrepancy applies to anything. What if you buy SLV shares and it turns out there isn't any silver, what if your safe deposit in the bank is magically emptied and so on. To imagine this large discrepancy occurs due to a fault on the Kinesis side implies someone from Kinesis went in and took a large amount of gold out - stole it. So the question would be, is that possible? i cannot see Brinks allowing that in a hurry but stuff happens. Can a bank clerk go into the bank vault and steal $1 million? Are there security systems in place to prevent this? i would expect so, as i say i cannot see Brinks allowing this to happen - it is their reputation on the line.

I'm not really suggesting theft. More some sort of systems issue. I'm not concerned with 'anyone else'. Kinesis promotes themselves as a safe store of value and says "hey, we audit" (and, yes, that's something)  but nobody has said what happens after that. Your wife says "I lost my grandmothers gold and diamond ring - the one that was worth $20k." You go through your house, doing an audit and it doesn't show up. Can't find it anywhere. Nobody knows what happened. I bet you wish you had insurance? An audit does not ACTUALLY offer protection, just highlights a problem which is at least step 1.

13 hours ago, sixgun said:

As i said it may not be for everyone. If this employee is living hand to mouth due to you paying them subsistence wages then Kinesis isn't for them.

We pay the award rate which is the rate set by the govt. There's an adage "It's not what you earn but what you spend..." We could pay 10x as much and some of our employees would still have no money!

13 hours ago, sixgun said:

Why would you impose payment with KAU/KAG? You offer this option - maybe you offer to pay 10%, 5% or whatever and then employees can save in gold coins which they can spend in the future if they decide. You get to mint some coins and they get to save in gold - but not have it locked up and difficult to sell if they need.

The sender pays the fee, not those receiving the coins so employees don't lose 0.45% straight up.

You have decided it is dead in the water - so that's it for you but as i said if you are an employer and you are seriously considering this, you should contact Kinesis.

info@kinesis.money

Why as the State Post Office of a Muslim country would i want to use Tether over a Sharia compliant gold and silver system? From my impression Indonesia is not pro-US - they will embrace a system using God's money.

Good point. I agree.

13 hours ago, sixgun said:

The point of adding this 'extra' layer of complexity is you can get your value into gold and silver and out of the fiat system. If you interact with someone who does not take KAU/KAG, then you can convert the gold/silver on the spot through your debit card. It is like, why get paid and hold in CHF (Swiss franc) if you mainly spend in USD? Why bother with extra complexity? Because i would like to hold my value in a stable currency up to the point i spend it. 

If you are spending all your money instantly then perhaps Kinesis is not for you.

It's OK for me. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that most Aussie workers and probably American (renowned for zero savings) and probably the unbanked in Indo spend their money pretty much straight up and don't want the additional complexity of gold. This limits the uptake, no?

13 hours ago, sixgun said:

 

Personally i will be getting income from KVT's.

Assuming full return on KVT's? I will do a separate post on this.

13 hours ago, sixgun said:

Say i get 534 KAU in a particular month - just a made up number. i can sell 500 KAU and then buy 500g of gold which i then use to mint more coins. The remaining 34 KAU is 76 short of the necessary number to mint, but i can put my day-to-day money in to make the 34KAU up to enough to buy another 100g of and then mint with that. i can keep cycling round, minting until i need to spend those KAU on bills. This way i use my cash which might be sitting in the bank making nothing, to mint coins which i will get a 'Royalty' from. Perhaps i can mint a few times before i need this cash. It does mean you need to a certain amount of resources but if you have those, use them to your advantage and not let the banks use your value for their advantage. Kinesis may not suit everyone but i am not concerned about everyone.

Gold took 8 years to move from $400 to $1800.

And 20 years to drop to $374 and another 12 to go to $1900. It's changed over 400% 3 times in 40 years.

how much did the USD fluctuate against the AUD, Euro or Yen over those 40 years? 

13 hours ago, sixgun said:

You don't need to think gold and silver are going to the Moon to use Kinesis. Personally i hope precious metals stay low for as long as possible. You will find many here want precious metals to stay low for as long as possible. If prices stay lower, i will be able to mint more coins and so generate a very large number and create a big income stream for the future.

and then go to the moon, at some point. No?

13 hours ago, sixgun said:

Tether claims to be backed by USD and will always be worth $1 - so it will always be going down in value due to inflation. Tether has failed to provide the audit to substantiate the financial reserves to prove it is fully backed. i would not be surprised if Tether is not fully backed - that the cash, what there is, is elsewhere and tied up. i do not know but i expect there are many layers of third party risk in Tether. The Feds are investigating regarding its use to manipulate BTC. 

Tether is very stable compared to BTC and LTC and so on - the latter are way too volatile to use as an everyday currency, at least at the moment they are. So Tether then looks a good choice for an everyday crypto. It is the USD made crypto. What you are doing however is buying into the current dollar paradigm. If you are concerned about fiat currency down the road, Tether is not the place to be.

I get Kinesis v fiat, don't worry. I think this is good timing for Kinesis.

Interestingly Kinesis also offers fiat digital currency in Euro and Yen -  KEU and KJY. But no USD, Pound etc So fiat's not so bad after all but some are better than others? Pg 28 of the Blueprint.

13 hours ago, sixgun said:

The system primarily works on the blockchain, so if Kinesis is going to be attacked then why not all blockchain? Any system can be attacked. You should withdraw all your cash and keep it under the mattress but then your house might burn down or be burgled. i would be more concerned about a bail in.

mmmm I'm not a blockchain expert but AFAIK it can be used for all sorts of things that need accounting for. It's just that this one is a currency alternative. Bitcoin is limited. Tether stays in the paradigm. A paradigm shift though - now that's threatening!

On 05/02/2019 at 01:52, sixgun said:

Currently 60 648 KVT's have been sold. i bought some KVT's when they first went on sale almost a year ago. So Kinesis has raised over $60 million. As far as i know this is the biggest initial offer there has ever been. The topic of KVT sales was touched upon in the last video i posted. Tom Coughlin brought it up. He seemed to suggest 'people' had (negatively) commented on the number of sales and i know this has been covered a few times before. The price of one KVT is high - as initial offerings go, it is very high. This means some people cannot afford to buy one, they are not prepared to take the risk, they are not sufficiently interested.......... Tom said the high price was deliberate b/c they have to do KYC (Know Your Customer). There is a cost in this and if tokens were $5 each and there were lots of applications for the KVT's, then Kinesis could end up processing lots of applications, createing lots of costs and raising less money. So the price was set high.

The issue of larger organisations was also covered. i can see in the responses of those with Kinesis and their body language those in charge are reluctant to sell big tranches of KVT's to a small number of investors. They feel it would put influence in the hands of a small number. For some time they have said they have enough cash to launch and develop Kinesis. Obviously more cash means they can do more but they have enough. So there is no necessity to do heavy advertising and there has not been much. There have been a very few paid video interviews and King World News does a promo. Not much, one might say next to none. It has been word of mouth.

So i am not sure how many they will sell to bigger organisations or what the distribution will be amongst bigger buyers. The message i get is there are willing big buyers but as Kinesis has enough cash and is busy making deals and developing the network, they don't seem to be in any rush. Any unsold KVT's will be held by the company and the income retained by Kinesis. There may well be future sales. i get the impression there will be some says at the end and or after the public sale is closed.

Yes it is complicated. The KVT's are easy. You buy them and then you get 20% of the top line income of Kinesis paid in Kinesis coins at the end of each month. i will be concentrating on this. As the coins appear i will be selling these on the exchange, pulling some cash out so as to get all the initial investment out so it is free money in the end and then using the remaining cash to mint more KC. I will then develop two income streams, one from the KVT's and the other from the coins i have minted.

So it is complicated - it might get even more complicated if other asset classes appear to back coins but that is Kinesis.

There are a lot of acronyms - you get used to these, i don't like them, i think the system is complicated enough without those to deal with. i don't like some of the language. It is an unnecessary language ecosystem 😀and i wonder who wrote it. i wonder if the abbreviations and flowery language haven't put some people off. i expect everything you mention here and the high price of the token has put a lot of people off. If i had been an advisor i would have cut all this sort of language out and perhaps cut the price of a KVT to $100.

Did Tether have a similar equity raising? If so, I wonder what the equivalent KVT was sold for?

On 05/02/2019 at 01:52, sixgun said:

To be honest i don't know what is in this category. They talk about strategic partnerships with exchanges and financial institutions. i would need to ask - and they might well not want to say as some of this is not coming out until they need to let out it.

i agree the returns are big. i know several ambassadors have done the number crunching and come up with similar and sometimes even bigger numbers. Now you could rightly say if the returns are not well founded they should not be making these projections - and i agree. i have done more than a double take on these. The way i see it, is several investors i know have crunched and recrunched the numbers and they work - personally i think, what if the return were level after the first year and 1/10th of the projected amount? So $270 a year. How is that? It's a 27% return. So how about level and 1/20th the return projected? 13.5% return and so on. Am i happy - i am happy, i wish it were more but i am happy.

As i see it the numbers have been crunched - the idea is sound - the people involved are sound - it is more than capable of working and even if it performs at a small fraction of the projected amounts i will get more money back and then it is free money.

The ABX has been running a precious metal bullion platform for several years. There are vaults in the various centres around the world. i have bought and sold bullion through the ABX using the Metaldesk platform which forms the basis of the Kinesis trading platform. i have never taken delivery. i have bought bullion in New York, Dubai, Hong Kong and Australia. Kinesis is in effect simply an extension of this.

Do we get to choose where our PM's are held? ie the country with least likelihood to confiscate (forced selling to the govt)

On 05/02/2019 at 01:52, sixgun said:

i would recommend everyone has some bullion in hand. If you stored bullion in the Brinks vault in Hong Kong to keep it secure and outside the UK, i am pretty sure you would be storing it in the same vault Kinesis and the ABX is using in Hong Kong.

i agree there is the axiom that if you don't hold it you don't own it. You have to decide if you want to have (some) of your gold in someone else's vault. Usually you have to pay for this. With Kinesis the gold is 'working' there are no vaulting fees so you can get an income on top.

i have 100g of gold in the ABX system in Dubai at the moment. i have this much as it is the minimum to mint with. So when Kinesis kicks off and minting starts i will be able to get involved straight away. Then i will wait for the KVT income - pull some cash out and mint with the rest. i would hope to withdraw everything i put in and hold that myself as gold in hand and then mint with the KVT + minting income stream.

You have to decide for yourself. If you want to hold all your gold yourself then you can't get seriously involved in Kinesis. You might still use Kinesis as a currency system and not get so committed. It is up to you.

What i know is the gold/silver etc is third party audited. I don't know about a ' Certificate of Currency '.

Yes, there is auditing but what happens if the audit turns up a large discrepancy? That would depend on the cause of the discrepancy. I would assume Brinks, Loomis etc are insured against theft and fire etc but what if the theft or systems failure (more likely) happened on the Kinesis side??

On 05/02/2019 at 01:52, sixgun said:

Yes anyone wanting to receive Kinesis coins will need a Kinesis wallet. The same goes for BTC or LTC. The same goes for bank accounts. They need an account.

The Kinesis coins will appear in THEIR wallets. The employer will send the coins to the wallets. They can then spend, send, save, or sell these coins. What i have seen is it will be the same as online banking. You can use a url or app. You will log in - you see your Kinesis coins, crypto and fiat. You have your Kinesis debit card. You can spend, send, save or sell the KC. So you could spend the KC through your Kinesis card or exchange them in your wallet for AUD.

From the point of view of an employer it is great. If the payroll comes to $20 000 a month, then $20 000 of KC are minted and the employer will get the income stream from that many coins in future. Eventually this will mount up and offset the payroll bill.

Why do I want to use it as an employee? A good proportion of employees live pay to pay and aren't concerned with inflation. I have pay that lands in my bank account and can be automatically debited for rent, insurance etc etc or use my cards with it. It is already an integrated system. If you tried to impose (as an employer) paying in Kau or Kag in most of the western developed world there would be a near riot!

When an employee is paid under the current system they don't lose 0.45% straight up.

This 'Pay Employee's' idea is dead in the water in any modern developed country. Can anybody show me how/why it will work in an undeveloped country?

On 05/02/2019 at 01:52, sixgun said:

If you are an employer and you are considering this you should speak to Kinesis for the details. It might not work for everyone you employ but the more coins you mint the more you can potentially make.

For a large proportion of the world Kinesis is very compelling as it is Sharia compliant. Kinesis has made some big inroads in Indonesia. Kinesis is courting Gulf Royalty. Gold, silver and Sharia compliance are very compelling to quite a few people on the planet. 

Sharia compliance is a compelling argument.

On 05/02/2019 at 01:52, sixgun said:

Probably most of the people in the US and UK have little idea where Indonesia is or much about it (Australia may be different). It has a huge population and on a completely unconnected video i watched yesterday it said Indonesia was the richest? Muslim country in the world, it has the biggest population. Many are unbanked and many work overseas and send money home. Kinesis and the Indonesian post office are in a deal to enable the transfer of 'money'. Many currently use Western Union. It works out more expensive for them - so a cheaper Sharia compliant money transfer system based on gold and silver through the local post office for unbanked people is pretty compelling.

I would think the Indo PO sticks on a small fee as the middleman, not a problem there. Why as a PO would I use the Kinesis solution and not say Tether? The PM is still traded in USD so there is still currency variations to take into account. Why add a layer of complexity?

On 05/02/2019 at 01:52, sixgun said:

More and more of the world is moving away from the USD. The majority of humanity sees gold and silver as true value and distrust or potentially hate the dollar system - if they can get into a gold currency they will.

We see currencies devaluing - we saw gold against the AUD at all time highs at the end of 2018 and isn't far off that now. Do you want to hold your value in AUD or in gold which is instantly convertible into AUD? There are plenty of currencies in a bad way - would you hold and take Kinesis or a currency going to zero?

I get it .... the argument is that currencies are getting devalued which is true but if $ are coming in and out and being spent quickly than it doesn't really matter. This does matter if you are saving over the very long term. Inflation will eat you up at around 3% a year, maybe more. BUT in the shorter term PM's are much more volatile eg from $400 to $1800

Kinesis is a cool solution if you are a PM bug and you think it's going to the moon and can wear a bit of downside. It's a combo commodities play and fiat hedge with the ability to spend it a bit along the way. Mass acceptance though? Tether is a more stablecoin in the short term and i suspect simpler.

On 05/02/2019 at 01:52, sixgun said:

You can have a drawer full of gold coins - great way to save your value but not easy to spend. With Kinesis you can hold more value in gold as you can spend it. So it can be a current and savings account. You cannot do that with any of the systems you mention. We are heading into turbulent times. If you are living hand to mouth perhaps it is not for you. i see people on the forum selling gold coins b/c their boiler blew up or their car is in for repair. They have to sell whole coins. They might not get the best price but they have to get the cash. Now what if their savings were in Kinesis gold coins? Now sweat. Pay the garage on the debit card.

i sell products on the internet. i use Paypal - it is something like 3.4% charges for me. i have to factor this into prices. If there were a cheaper way i would offer this. Under EU legislation you can't offer a lower price for using cash over a credit card - but i expect you could offer a lower price in Kinesis as it is a different currency.

There will be other advantages. You take and use the advantages that apply.

A concerted cyber attack would take Kinesis down? Would it? Would it take Bitcoin down? A run on Northern Rock took that bank down. The banks look rocky, they might bail you in, there are looks of problems with the system as it is.

Bail-ins are a big possibility. There is no actual depositors guarantee in Australia. There is an 'IF' and an 'OR' in the verbiage which renders the 'guarantee' useless.

On 05/02/2019 at 01:52, sixgun said:

 

You assume countries aren't getting involved. As i say Gulf Royalties are interested. Indonesia is signing up. Kinesis is signed up with the German stock exchange, the wholesale coins KWG (1kg gold) and KWS (1000oz) will be traded on this stock exchange. Kinesis is signed up with the Indonesian commodity exchange.

Perhaps we should talk about a DOS attack on NatWest or the Commonwealth Bank of Australia - every system can potentially be broken. Kinesis is not friendless and won't take the USD out in an afternoon. So i am not ignoring this issue but i am not losing sleep over it.

Yes, but Natwest or CBA are just part of the system and aren't launching an alternative currency.

On 06/02/2019 at 22:20, CN21 said:

It seems so when you look at the diagrams with KBX and KCC and KFN etc. but if you were to compare this set up to a global bank that allows you to wire money all over the world, which is the direction Kinesis seem to be heading in, this is really not that complex at all.

They look very good but they are being shown in isolation. Somebody, somewhere in the Kinesis "economy" is paying for those yields out of the 4.5bps transaction fees and the KCC revenue. If you want to wire $1000 (in KAUs) your Kinesis account will be debited $1004.50 as I understand it. To cover the overheads / yields on passive participation like KVT yield and the cost of running the Kinesis platform, more must be deducted in charges than all KAU / KAG holders will receive in yields in aggregate across all of Kinesis. If you're a participant sitting back and collecting a holders yield you're a net recipient from the system but it also means someone else is paying lots of 4.5bps to pay for your holders yield and so a net contributor. Are these contributors willing to do this? That depends on whether Kinesis transaction fees are competitive when compared to the alternatives they have available.

A quick look at Western Union and it appears that Kinesis is cheaper. However (and this comes back to one of my original points), I think it's more complicated. I don't need to have a Western Union account to receive money. I don't need to mint or understand yields or Kau's or Kag's etc

Where is the table of comparison of costs provided by Kinesis if they are seriously offering this as a legit money sending service?

@sixgun Ok, so Kinesis has my attention. It's highly speculative but as a concept ticks all the right boxes. I've read the white paper and blueprint.

I'm really on the fence but starting to cool. Here's why...

1. Slow KVT sales (will speed up towards the end but doesn't bode well at the minute). As another punter or two suggested that if they ACTUALLY had big backers they should have taken them (at least to some degree to get it kick started). At this minute To sell the remainder they need to sell on average 3642 KVT's a day. Today was 0. Last 3 or 4 days was about 47 (from memory)

2. It's shockingly complicated. I'm reasonably analytical but this is next level. Sure it's a whole monetary system, i get it, but...

3. It's like a return to the dot com days. Too many acronyms and corporate wankery talk makes me switch off. I guess you gotta play the game though...

4.By far and away the biggest use of token $ is Strategic Investment. What is that?

5. If it sounds too good to be true... (return on KVT's and yes, I know it's based on Tether velocity but those are HUGE returns)

6. Somebody else holding my PM's is not the best idea. Is it insured against say misuse by Kinesis, theft? Do we see a Certificate of Currency for e.g. $1b of stock in each vault (that's just year1!)?

8. Pay employees? I think they would need a Kinesis account? Not enough detail given. My guys just want to see money appear in THEIR bank account. Yes, it's a better system overall for the good of humanity I know, I know, but when you live pay to pay you don't care. If I can pay in KAU and it ends up as AUD in THEIR bank account... now you're talking!

9. I haven't yet seen the compelling case spelled out why Kinesis is a competitive value proposition in the transferal of currency compared to traditional forms i.e. western union, swift, credit card etc AS FAR AS THE AVERAGE PUNTER IS CONCERNED. i.e. cost and convenience (simplicity).  Did I miss it?

10. Sure, the USD as the reserve currency is on it's way out, everyone knows it but they will want to draw it out as long as possible. Sovereign states developing their own digital solutions won't like competition either. Maybe not the IMF either. I don't know how it works but a concerted cyber attack would take Kinesis down? This has not been discussed at all.

I hope you can dispel my concerns and bring me into the fold!

Thanks.