2023 proof sovereigns

[refero]

As the 2023 proof sovereign sets are approaching, i cant help but thinking how RM will decide to approach these release in terms of numbers.

I m sorry to say that, and i know i ll sound unpopular, but the Memorial has been a disaster, a complete failure. Way too many coins floaded the market and, months and months after official release,  i see around the very same coins offered (and sold) for the very same amount of money they were asked for on 15-11-22.

Sovereigns (20,000 + minted!!!) fetch exactly 680 gbp (sometimes even less!!), the 5 pounds is on sale everywhere, the 5 coins set is being offered around for a couple hundred gbp LESS than original price..
I was one of those that went crazy, that morning, and queued to get his Sov. I dont regret it (even if, as been stated already several times, the too busy depiction of the reverse makes it not really enjoyable on the full sovereign), but as this hobby costs a lot of money, it is normal to work on both sides; buying something for the pleasure of... but also protecting our own money and make goof investment.

People went crazy with Memorial frosting issues. As if that would change something in terms of value or desirability of those coins. There are just too many of them  around. Simple as that.

To cut it, what are your thoughts about 2023 proof coins incoming? Being a coronation year market will absorbe regardless to quantity? Or, if RM will decide to keep those massive numbers we will face a Memorial part II movie?

[refero]

i may add that when we invest/collect in numismatic, and we pay hundreds (sometimes thousands) of gbp over spot, 3 things are crucial to protect the value of purchase;

scarcity

price

grading

Price is a cutter, but not THE cutter. Grading is important too, but it gets along with price. Scarcity is what we look for in numismatic. If a coin is always available in the market, then its magic is lost

[westminstrel]

This is why, as nice as the Coronation Ounce design is, I have not bought into it at all. Whether the 1oz silver or the 2oz gold matte proof Mint Marque only release.

It’s just coronation frenzy - these coins will be mostly forgotten in 6 months, when the RM has released new, first-time-ever, limited coins.

They’re diluting the market and I have decided to really only buy into the Sovereigns because they are quintessential coin of the Monarch.

Indeed the Memorial Sovereign hasn’t appreciated in value as much as we might have hoped but I am certain it will eventually go up in value.

I can only hope the Coronation Proof Sovereign range will have an even lower mintage because, indeed, rarity is part of the appeal of numismatic coins.

[Zhorro]

4 minutes ago, westminstrel said:

This is why, as nice as the Coronation Ounce design is, I have not bought into it at all. Whether the 1oz silver or the 2oz gold matte proof Mint Marque only release.

It’s just coronation frenzy - these coins will be mostly forgotten in 6 months, when the RM has released new, first-time-ever, limited coins.

They’re diluting the market and I have decided to really only buy into the Sovereigns because they are quintessential coin of the Monarch.

Indeed the Memorial Sovereign hasn’t appreciated in value as much as we might have hoped but I am certain it will eventually go up in value.

I can only hope the Coronation Proof Sovereign range will have an even lower mintage because, indeed, rarity is part of the appeal of numismatic coins.

I think the Coronation ounce designs may be the exception to the "forgotten in 6 months" rule.  I think the design is superb, I love the colour of the gold and it comes in an expensive box - I've bought a quarter ounce from a dealer (and a 1/40 oz on the secondary market - obviously no box).  I've also bought a SOTD sovereign from a dealer but in terms of design I rate the ounce design over the sovereign.  Yes, I know a lot more people collect sovereigns, so in the long-run I think they will probably do better than the ounce designs.

As to the forthcoming Coronation Proof sovereign, if it is essentially the 2023 Proof sovereign, then surely we should be expecting a mintage of 10,000-15,000 for the Proof sovereign?

[SeverinDigsSovereigns]

Isn't that a signal to buy?

1 hour ago, refero said:

I m sorry to say that, and i know i ll sound unpopular, but the Memorial has been a disaster, a complete failure. Way too many coins floaded the market and, months and months after official release,  i see around the very same coins offered (and sold) for the very same amount of money they were asked for on 15-11-22.

 

[CazLikesCoins]

2 hours ago, refero said:

I m sorry to say that, and i know i ll sound unpopular, but the Memorial has been a disaster, a complete failure. Way too many coins floaded the market and, months and months after official release,  i see around the very same coins offered (and sold) for the very same amount of money they were asked for on 15-11-22.

Reasons I like the memorial sovereign:

1) Jody Clark coat of arms design! Big fan! Queen's beasts! I went to local libraries to read all things heraldie motivated by those designs! The librarians we spoke to (other half) allowed us to read reference books left in a basement untouched since the 1990s. It all got very exciting and adventurous. I almost bought a fedora and a whip! I suppose heraldic reference books don't have much call in modern day libraries where people ignore all the books and sit on the internet all day looking up how to apply vajazzle tattoos to their you know whats.

2) Buying a mem' sov' is a lot better then leaving £400 squids in the bank watching inflation chip away at it constantly. Nope, put it in a mem' sov' and this time next year you'll be able to buy two packets of crisps instead of none.

3) Who cares how many mem' sovs are minted. I only care about how many mem' sovs I can stick away  

[westminstrel]

6 hours ago, Zhorro said:

I think the Coronation ounce designs may be the exception to the "forgotten in 6 months" rule.  I think the design is superb, I love the colour of the gold and it comes in an expensive box - I've bought a quarter ounce from a dealer (and a 1/40 oz on the secondary market - obviously no box).

The same was being said of many of the Platinum Jubilee coins last year at this time, but most of them have been more or less forgotten (from my limited knowledge, to be fair).

Indeed the matte proof 2oz might be the one standout coin, but at the price, I feel it’s too big of a gamble. Though good luck to those who could both - afford it and be offered it. 🙂

[westminstrel]

4 hours ago, CazLikesCoins said:

Who cares how many mem' sovs are minted. I only care about how many mem' sovs I can stick away

I agree. The design is superb (even if it is busy) and I think in some years when the dust has settled and they’ve all landed in the hands of collectors who want to keep them for the long term, their prices will slowly go up.

I feel like they’re still selling at issue price not because they’re unpopular but because people just don’t have the funds to keep up.

6 hours ago, refero said:

Sovereigns (20,000 + minted!!!) fetch exactly 680 gbp (sometimes even less!!), the 5 pounds is on sale everywhere, the 5 coins set is being offered around for a couple hundred gbp LESS than original price.

And not really… they were marked up £500+ and are now back near or at issue price.

They are definitely not selling at £500 below issue price. If you know of any that are £500 below issue price, please PM me asap. 😏

[GoldDiggerDave]

@westminstrel without a doubt some people are being shook out of the tree……but I will still stand by this, there’s been no better time to be alive for a sovereign collector. Jubilee, Memorial, Coronation

 

[Paul]

Keep the faith doubters

I doubt many who bought gold & silver sets for previous Coronations 1953, 1937, 1911, 1902, 1838/1839, 1831, 1821 are complaining on their gains from what they paid at launch to their value today 

• 1989 500 year was a unique issue - Done exceptionally well - Tick 
• 2017 200year was a unique issue event - Done exceptionally well - Tick 
• 2022 Platinum jubilee was a once in a lifetime event
• 2022 Memorial was a once in a lifetime event 
• 2023 SOTD Coronation sovereign, again once a in a life time 
• 2023 Coronation will be also be etched in history and the annuls of times along with other Coronation years

So much has came out and has happened in such a short space of time, it seems like total overload and market saturation currently.

But having faith in the past and understanding the fundamentals & reasons for buying and holding these for the long term still remain true

If gold continues its steady rises like its had, as it should as the worldwide money printing continues .  The West continued slow motion collapse. More banking collapses and threats of War  

When we revisit this thread 5+ years down the line, those who have held and not been shaken out will hopefully be sitting pretty, with mature market prices to assume and limited supply for buying 

[GoldDiggerDave]

@Paul well said mate some cry about the the mintages of the 5 coins sets 700 for the Jubilee and 1200 for the Memorial........... these are tiny mintages compared to other years the 2022 KCIII 5 set will be a legacy set, if you hand this to your kids they will do okay considering when we have had a change of monarch the mintage for the 5 sovereigns sets AKA long sets have been much higher.  

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2023 by GoldDiggerDave

[TheShinyStuff]

I totally agree with the positive sentiment of @GoldDiggerDave and @Paul on this.

As just an ordinary guy who does not have a fortune to spend on my hobby (and certainly not a mint marque customer!), this has been an expensive time recently.

But this is an unprecedented time in history and there have been coins to match. I'm not a huge sovereign fan to be fair, but I have purchased the Jubilee and Memorial proof. I think the Memorial is stunning incidentally. I was also lucky enough to get a SotD on release.

If I can afford it I'll also try to get the Coronation proof, but that will be it for me. I can't keep spending at this rate!

However, when the dust has settled I would hope to have 4 very special Sovereigns that will eventually take their place with the other truly historic Sovereigns - and have price tags to match. I can just about afford them now, but once the price starts to rise (as it surely will) these coins would be out of my reach. So as @GoldDiggerDave says, the timing is very fortuitous for us, we'll me at least!

 

[Paul]

5 minutes ago, TheShinyStuff said:

I totally agree with the positive sentiment of @GoldDiggerDave and @Paul on this.

As just an ordinary guy who does not have a fortune to spend on my hobby (and certainly not a mint marque customer!), this has been an expensive time recently.

But this is an unprecedented time in history and there have been coins to match. I'm not a huge sovereign fan to be fair, but I have purchased the Jubilee and Memorial proof. I think the Memorial is stunning incidentally. I was also lucky enough to get a SotD on release.

If I can afford it I'll also try to get the Coronation proof, but that will be it for me. I can't keep spending at this rate!

However, when the dust has settled I would hope to have 4 very special Sovereigns that will eventually take their place with the other truly historic Sovereigns - and have price tags to match. I can just about afford them now, but once the price starts to rise (as it surely will) these coins would be out of my reach. So as @GoldDiggerDave says, the timing is very fortuitous for us, we'll me at least!

 

best of luck - keep the faith 

[GoldDiggerDave]

Total mintage of 810 2022 Jubilee £5 sovereign minted.   1300 ish for the Memorial £5 (when they publish the mintage) 

Mintage of Proof £5 sovereign 

1887 797

1893 773

1902 (Matt) 8,066

1911 2,812

1937 Edward VIII 6 

1937 George VI 5,501

If you are holding a 2022 Jubilee or a KCIII 2022 memorial 5 set  you are in  very good company, and for me a real pleasure to be a custodian of these coins. 

 

[refero]

6 hours ago, westminstrel said:

And not really… they were marked up £500+ and are now back near or at issue price.

They are definitely not selling at £500 below issue price. If you know of any that are £500 below issue price, please PM me asap. 😏

never said they are selling at 500 gbp below issue price..

[refero]

4 hours ago, Paul said:

• 1989 500 year was a unique issue - Done exceptionally well - Tick 
• 2017 200year was a unique issue event - Done exceptionally well - Tick 
• 2022 Platinum jubilee was a once in a lifetime event
• 2022 Memorial was a once in a lifetime event 
• 2023 SOTD Coronation sovereign, again once a in a life time 
• 2023 Coronation will be also be etched in history and the annuls of times along with other Coronation years

i quite agree on everything, just a couple of comments

1989 is doing execptionally well now. It's litterally been ignored for 25-30 years

2017 yes indeed was a unique issue event and i regret having bought only 1 proof back at the time

2022 Platinum jubilee was indeed once in a life time event

2023 Sotd and Coronation yes they are and they will be special events

2022 Memorial; I keep thinking that was an "invented" once in a life time event. RM decided to go all in with an unnecessary full set of coins and, moreover, they decided to go on the greedy side, by minting too many sovs, too many sets etc etc etc. The market wasnt ready, the Platinum Jubilee was just too close. Not trying to get anyone by my side but if, as of today, i can still get the Memorial Proof sov at 680 gbp, the 5 pounds and the 5 coins set for a couple hundreds gbp less than in November...it doesnt look good to me. Memorial (i am not talking about bullion sovereigns, those are not relevant to me, they dont carry a significant numismatic value over spot) will perform well in 10-15-20 years? i dont know the future

[westminstrel]

15 hours ago, refero said:

the 5 coins set is being offered around for a couple hundred gbp LESS than original price

☝🏽 

1 hour ago, refero said:

never said they are selling at 500 gbp below issue price..

No but you said the above. Where is the 5-coin set being sold for a couple hundred LESS than original price?

Is / was it an individual seller doing a distress sale? Or a dealer trying to get rid of stock?

[westminstrel]

@GoldDiggerDave, @Paul, @TheShinyStuff

Agreed! It’s good to be reminded about the backdrop against which these coins are being released.

There are some events that are fabricated (like celebrating Prince George’s 5th Birthday!!!), and then there are those that are truly unprecedented.

It’s indeed a great moment in time to be a collector witnessing these historic events, and to experience them alongside so many wonderful and supportive people like yourselves and others here. 🙂

[GoldDiggerDave]

8 hours ago, refero said:

i quite agree on everything, just a couple of comments

1989 is doing execptionally well now. It's litterally been ignored for 25-30 years

2017 yes indeed was a unique issue event and i regret having bought only 1 proof back at the time

2022 Platinum jubilee was indeed once in a life time event

2023 Sotd and Coronation yes they are and they will be special events

2022 Memorial; I keep thinking that was an "invented" once in a life time event. RM decided to go all in with an unnecessary full set of coins and, moreover, they decided to go on the greedy side, by minting too many sovs, too many sets etc etc etc. The market wasnt ready, the Platinum Jubilee was just too close. Not trying to get anyone by my side but if, as of today, i can still get the Memorial Proof sov at 680 gbp, the 5 pounds and the 5 coins set for a couple hundreds gbp less than in November...it doesnt look good to me. Memorial (i am not talking about bullion sovereigns, those are not relevant to me, they dont carry a significant numismatic value over spot) will perform well in 10-15-20 years? i dont know the future

Everyone has different perspectives and goals so theres never going to be one answer fits all, I do share in the exhaustion that many of us sovereign collectors are facing, We were always going to get a Jubilee and a Coronation (new monarch set)   The memorial is a new phenomena just no way was I missing out on the new monarchs obverse...and I keep saying this its a genuinely an  impressive portrait of KCIII and I like the clean legend.  

Royal Mint greedy?  No as no one is making us buy them and they did get the feel of the market about right and it's only fitting they produced a memorial sovereign.  My bank balance would have appreciated the rest and just skipped to the next sovereign that would be the 2023 a coronation year set.   We will see a 2023 proof coronation set and then which is like to hammer a lot of people the usual November-ish launch of the 2024 next years sovereign.....this one might be a step too far in terms of timing.   

What I would like to see if we have a mid year coronation proof set (I'm guessing June/July) I'd like to see the 2024 set also pushed forward until mid year 2024 not November ish  2023.  

I would love to get back to the  George and the Dragon for the next decade from 2024.  

 

[Sc391]

I like the direction this discussion headed.  If the goal of the mint is to enrich flippers and resellers then the memorial sovereigns were the failures some have stated.  If the goal was a beautiful collectible keepsake for a wide range of the population/collectors to celebrate a once in a lifetime event, maybe they didn’t fail.

Regarding the appreciation of some of the more expensive issues, I’m wondering if we are reaching a point of pricing ourselves out of a wide range of collectors.  If a single sovereign or a quarter ounce gold coin doubles in resale value people will grumble, but still are able to buy it.  If it’s a five sov set or a larger sovereign or a 5 ounce, etc doubles in value, the market available who can afford it is greatly diminished.  A smaller market means less demand and lower appreciation.  I think that’s why the coronation 1/4 oz and 1/40 oz gold were such a hit - even when they are selling for double the issue price they are still affordable to a large group.  Also why the silver is so popular.

It’s always a quandary- make too few and only the elite seem to score, leaving many unhappy - make to many and the collectible appreciation potential dries up, leaving many unhappy.

We must be gluttons for punishment to have picked this hobby………

Edited April 30, 2023 by Sc391

[westminstrel]

2 hours ago, Sc391 said:

We must be gluttons for punishment to have picked this hobby………

So we’re numismasochists? I’m claiming the word I just coined. 😛

 

[Sc391]

Love the new word @westminstrel.  You own it but I’m definitely going to use it

[AppleZippoandMetronome]

The reality is with how much the hobby has changed in recent decades its all a gamble. There are too many variables at play to know what coins wlll be future winners or even what a future winner will look like. I suppose given the comparisons that get made many want to believe that a future winner will resemble a winner from decades past but with modern grading not to mention the modern sensibilitiies of coin handling generally, future wiinners will likelly never get anywhere near the values of past winners. I'd even go as far as to say mintages such as those listed here will long term be meaningless and what will have a bigger long term detrimental affect on value is modern grading and preservation. This isn't to say none of these coins will do well in the future just that its impossible to predict and foolish to make comparisons to older coins when so much has changed in the way coins are minted then preserved.

As someone who has bought into a bunch of these including the memorial sets I think my overall feelings match those of @Paul  Given the current state of things (not to mention how the future looks) I'd much rather have those gold cons in my posession than a pile of cash that is constantly being devalued.

[Paul]

As plastic coffin graded PF70 rare coins be /  and / are becoming slowly commoditised and accepted world wide

For the sake of simple and easy maths

IE a PF70 1989 £5 gold 500 year sovereign 

Is like having a £5,000 GBP note now 

Knowing something has limited supply, limited mintage and popular demand

Add into devaluation of general currency 

Grading, whilst not fully embraced in UK as yet. If inflation, bail outs, bouncy back loans, money printing etc continues

Devalued money will look for a safe space to cry and reflect 

[AppleZippoandMetronome]

19 minutes ago, Paul said:

As plastic coffin graded PF70 rare coins be /  and / are becoming slowly commoditised and accepted world wide

For the sake of simple and easy maths

IE a PF70 1989 £5 gold 500 year sovereign 

Is like having a £5,000 GBP note now 

Knowing something has limited supply, limited mintage and popular demand

Add into devaluation of general currency 

Grading, whilst not fully embraced in UK as yet. If inflation, bail outs, bouncy back loans, money printing etc continues

Devalued money will look for a safe space to cry and reflect 

I agree completely. I think just about the safest place you could put money moving into the future would be into one of the highly sought after coins from the past graded as highly as possible. The supply is very limited for high graded examples and the desire for that supply is likely to always exist.

My point above about grading - or how we handle modern coins more generally - having a detrimental affect on future values is simple supply and demand.  In my opinion worrying about a slightly higher mintage really doesn't matter. What matters is the amount of examples that make it into the future preserved in a high grade. With how we handle coins today vs 30, 50, 70 or more years ago many, many more examples will exist at the higher grades which will impact value and makes modern coins whatever the coin a really bad comparison for the sake of investment to older coins.