Shield Sovereigns

[dicker]

I have been collecting Sovs for some time and as some of you known, I like Victoria Shields.

In general terms would fellow collectors agree that Shields have appreciated significantly over the last couple of years  (irrespective of gold price)?

I think they have, but am not sure why.

Thoughts?

Best

Dicker

[GoldDiggerDave]

Good quality shields are getting harder to come by, there’s loads in the range  gF - VF around but to truly get EF and gEF (not just some joker listing a fine as a EF) is becoming harder and deeper pockets are needed to get them. 

Also think there’s more love and appreciation for them, just like the up-swing we have seen with the Gillicks. 

 

[AppleZippoandMetronome]

The Victorian shield backs have been promoted in text and in video by various folks of influence in recent years. I bought quite a few of them several years back when I first started putting bigger amounts of money in gold and even then they carreid a slightly higher premium. Only reason I bought them over standard sovs or best value sovs was because of what I read here and saw on YouTube. So I'd imagine its just a case of more and more people following those voices of influence which has increased demand which has been noticed by the dealers.

[Britannia47]

The Shield is still iconic and sought after, with the enduring (50 year) image of Wyon’s Young Head, and of course the endless varieties. Also minted in Sydney & Melbourne.

This one was picked up in the late 90s for £72 from the Dorset Coin Company 1871 die No.2 in EF. Basic Sovs we’re about £50!

Will let the photos do the rest…..

[flyingveepixie]

11 hours ago, dicker said:

I have been collecting Sovs for some time and as some of you known, I like Victoria Shields.

In general terms would fellow collectors agree that Shields have appreciated significantly over the last couple of years  (irrespective of gold price)?

I think they have, but am not sure why.

Thoughts?

Best

Dicker

They always seem to be priced higher than bog standard Geo & Dragon sovs, so yes, I would agree with you on that.

I'm very attracted to them myself and always have a look at the ones on offer on the forum but so far have never purchased because they're that much more expensive.

Edited March 31, 2023 by flyingveepixie

[Norskgeld]

Agreed. You can't beat a Young Head Shield Back.

[ZRPMs]

Always liked the shields. My uncle has a small box full of them from when he use to do quite a bit of trading. At the time they would have only been worth £30 / £40. he never kept the G&D ones only the shields and guineas. I think he sold his guineas a while back. Like the shields, the guineas also seem far more pricier than I remember.

[CazLikesCoins]

I like shield backs. They always remind me of farthings and for some reason I've aways liked the way farthings feel, small and chunky and very tactile. Shame shield backs have a higher premium than a regular sovereign but not surprising really. You get what you pay for.

Edited March 31, 2023 by CazLikesCoins

[SidS]

I had a date run of shields (all F-VF) from 1842-1873. I have always loved shield sovereigns. I can't afford them any more so I now collect crowns and halfcrowns of the same design. They give me my shield fix.

As some posters have stated earlier, I used to gather guineas and shield sovereigns. I never cared for the St. George design, too common - boring.

Yes shields have always had a premium, 1838-9 sovereigns have had a premium over other shields and George IV and William IV shields have gone up even more astronomically - they even out perform George III guineas!

 

[SidS]

36 minutes ago, CazLikesCoins said:

I like shield backs. They always remind me of farthings and for some reason I've aways liked the way farthings feel, small and chunky and very tactile.

There's a very good reason for this. From 1838-1859 the obverse dies were shared between sovereigns and farthings. They'd start brand new striking sovereigns and once they'd reached a certain point they were then relegated to strike farthings instead. As such I should imagine getting sharply struck farthings in this era would be challenging.

[CazLikesCoins]

24 minutes ago, SidS said:

There's a very good reason for this. From 1838-1859 the obverse dies were shared between sovereigns and farthings. They'd start brand new striking sovereigns and once they'd reached a certain point they were then relegated to strike farthings instead. As such I should imagine getting sharply struck farthings in this era would be challenging.

How about that. I like this forum. I'm alway picking up interesting facts that I didn't know. I'll never look at a farthing in quite the same way again. It's just a shame they're not made out of gold. 😃

Edited March 31, 2023 by CazLikesCoins

[Cornishfarmer]

Started in 2014 and Picked up a fair few shields, not so many in recent times but from 2014-2020 they were about £40 more than g and d.     Young heads were about £10 more than g and d

[Britannia47]

2 hours ago, CazLikesCoins said:

I like shield backs. They always remind me of farthings and for some reason I've aways liked the way farthings feel, small and chunky and very tactile. Shame shield backs have a higher premium than a regular sovereign but not surprising really. You get what you pay for.

I think you are confusing the farthing with the nickel brass 3d bit, known as the ‘thrup-knee bit’, worth 3 old pence. The portcullis certainly looks like a shield. The old farthings from 1860 were made of bronze, and were lighter/smaller. The obverse was by L.C. Wyon, similar to the ‘Australia’ Sovereign. Hope that’s not too much information!…….😺

[flyingveepixie]

40 minutes ago, Britannia47 said:

I think you are confusing the farthing with the nickel brass 3d bit, known as the ‘thrup-knee bit’, worth 3 old pence. The portcullis certainly looks like a shield. The old farthings from 1860 were made of bronze, and were lighter/smaller. The obverse was by L.C. Wyon, similar to the ‘Australia’ Sovereign. Hope that’s not too much information!…….😺

That's a great little group of farthings you have there.  I always loved farthings. Don't know why, they always just seemed kind of special to me for some reason...🤔

[SidS]

2 hours ago, Britannia47 said:

I think you are confusing the farthing with the nickel brass 3d bit, known as the ‘thrup-knee bit’, worth 3 old pence. The portcullis certainly looks like a shield.😺

 

Oh I wouldn't say that. Depends on your farthing.

 

[Britannia47]

Mention has yet to be made of the French engraver Jean Babtiste Merlin who designed the different ‘shields’ after Pistrucci’s George & Dragon was kicked into the long grass during the reign of William IV. 
Top left is the 1829 GIV, next to the 1832 WIV - both magnificent reverses of the crowned shield of Royal Arms.
Bottom left is the 1881 (S) Sydney shield, next to the 1874 (M) Melbourne shield; the more familiar paired down versions of the shield, minus the Hanoverian coat of arms and ‘White horse of Hanover’ of Queens Beast fame.

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Britannia47

[Spyder]

When you can see the eyes of the lions, then you have a special quality shield. 

[SidS]

One day I will buy a William IV... always wanted one.

[Silverlocks]

Every sovereign minted between 1821 and 1871 or thereabouts was a variation of the shield design.  A large proportion of sovs produced between 1872-1887 were shields, as was every half sovereign produced between 1821 and 1892.  There are plenty of them about - I see shields coming up here or on FB at least a couple of times a week. I think the obsession with shields is also something of a UK phenomenon.  Outside the UK, the premium for shields is much lower - I had a conversation with a chap from Malta the other day who was buying a couple at 450 Euros each, which was about £396 or 5% over spot.

Being older, examples in good condition aren't thick on the ground.  I've seen feeding frenzies with folks buying up some real munters at quite inflated prices.  However, you can get nice looking items in the gVF or aboutEF range fairly easily, albeit at about 20-25% premium over spot.  Occasionally one sees some optimistic chancer trying to flog shields at really inflated prices, but I've also seen folks dropping prices down to £420 or so because they're having trouble shifting them.

The design is nice enough, but it's small enough that you can't really see the detail without magnification.  It is nicer than the George and Dragon design IMO, but with sovs the perceived condition is mostly driven by state of the obverse.  

I've got a few shields, and standing policy is to buy them if they're available at a price where I'm confident I can get the money back out.  But I wouldn't go out of my way to buy shields at a priority.  At current spot, the going rate for one in decent condition seems to sit about the £450 mark, and while the stacker in me cringes a bit, I think there's not a massive amount of downside at that price if the coin is in decent condition.

The premium is as much a social construct as anything else, based on a perception of rarity more than anything intrinsic.  However, markets are social constructs, and the market can stay insane longer than you can stay solvent.  If you don't overspend then you're probably not going to lose too big on shields.  However, I think most of the value has already been extracted from shields now, and I don't think they represent an intrinsically better investment than any other sovereign, as they're certainly not undervalued.

I think OP is right in that they are increasing in perceived value, and the colour scheme and design of today's sovereigns is doing nothing to relieve demand on the antique ones.  I suspect there will still be some ebb and flow in the market but they aren't making any more of them.

[Divmad]

13 minutes ago, Silverlocks said:

Every sovereign minted between 1821 and 1871 or thereabouts was a variation of the shield design.  A large proportion of sovs produced between 1872-1887 were shields, as was every half sovereign produced between 1821 and 1892.  There are plenty of them about - I see shields coming up here or on FB at least a couple of times a week. I think the obsession with shields is also something of a UK phenomenon.  Outside the UK, the premium for shields is much lower - I had a conversation with a chap from Malta the other day who was buying a couple at 450 Euros each, which was about £396 or 5% over spot.

Being older, examples in good condition aren't thick on the ground.  I've seen feeding frenzies with folks buying up some real munters at quite inflated prices.  However, you can get nice looking items in the gVF or aboutEF range fairly easily, albeit at about 20-25% premium over spot.  Occasionally one sees some optimistic chancer trying to flog shields at really inflated prices, but I've also seen folks dropping prices down to £420 or so because they're having trouble shifting them.

The design is nice enough, but it's small enough that you can't really see the detail without magnification.  It is nicer than the George and Dragon design IMO, but with sovs the perceived condition is mostly driven by state of the obverse.  

I've got a few shields, and standing policy is to buy them if they're available at a price where I'm confident I can get the money back out.  But I wouldn't go out of my way to buy shields at a priority.  At current spot, the going rate for one in decent condition seems to sit about the £450 mark, and while the stacker in me cringes a bit, I think there's not a massive amount of downside at that price if the coin is in decent condition.

The premium is as much a social construct as anything else, based on a perception of rarity more than anything intrinsic.  However, markets are social constructs, and the market can stay insane longer than you can stay solvent.  If you don't overspend then you're probably not going to lose too big on shields.  However, I think most of the value has already been extracted from shields now, and I don't think they represent an intrinsically better investment than any other sovereign, as they're certainly not undervalued.

I think OP is right in that they are increasing in perceived value, and the colour scheme and design of today's sovereigns is doing nothing to relieve demand on the antique ones.  I suspect there will still be some ebb and flow in the market but they aren't making any more of them.

Isn't the current fad for QEII Gillicks, a modern variant on the Shield craze? I can't see why, personally. Surely, premiums over spot come with relative scarcity of a"type", which may be linked to design, but more probably mintages, so my thinking is that the occasional special issue sovereigns will justify their premiums over time. KCII Memorials, anyone?

[ArgentSmith]

I wonder if the RMs Great engravers and Monarchs series along with quite a few special reverse sovereigns over recent years have got people looking for older coins and something other than the traditional George and Dragon. Maybe?

[Silverlocks]

46 minutes ago, Divmad said:

Isn't the current fad for QEII Gillicks, a modern variant on the Shield craze? I can't see why, personally. Surely, premiums over spot come with relative scarcity of a"type", which may be linked to design, but more probably mintages, so my thinking is that the occasional special issue sovereigns will justify their premiums over time. KCII Memorials, anyone?

Perception can have a big influence on market values - this is how bubble markets form.  The market value can be as much a function of perception as it is of actual scarcity.

My original point is that shields aren't as scarce as folks make them out to be - a significant part of the value is driven by perception.  Same with Gillicks - they had quite substantial mintages and were never circulated.  With Elizabeth dying there might be some transient demand, but there were something like 50 million Gillicks produced, and none withdrawn from circulation as they were never circulated as currency in the first place.  Some special reverses such as the 2002 or 2012 have retained a bit of premium over bullion, and smaller mintage years of Gillicks (1957 and 1959) command a slightly higher price.  Are they particularly scarce?   Not really, just perceived as such.

[ArgentSmith]

18 minutes ago, Silverlocks said:

Are they particularly scarce?   Not really, just perceived as such.

Who knows what rate per annum but clearly a portion of any mintage would be lost, melted or damaged in any given year. Not sure what my point is😁

[Silverlocks]

17 minutes ago, ArgentSmith said:

Who knows what rate per annum but clearly a portion of any mintage would be lost, melted or damaged in any given year. Not sure what my point is😁

The only data point I have - and I'm not sure of its provenance - is that during the 19th century the RM normally expected sovs to last about 15 years in circulation before they were worn to the point they were underweight, at which point they were returned to the Royal Mint to be recycled.

[modofantasma]

4 hours ago, Spyder said:

When you can see the eyes of the lions, then you have a special quality shield. 

And if you can tell whether or not they brushed their teeth then you're really in the money 😏