Crossing the £10k threshold

[scotwasp]

Just wondering if anyone other than me considers not buying more than the reporting limit from any one dealer.  Not that I am buying with anything with other than taxed income, but why would you want to have them reporting you to HMRC?
in the US it’s any single purchase, which means they informally advise you to buy in instalments, but I understand that in the UK it’s annual spend.

I buy my pm to be a wee bit “off grid “ so I don’t really welcome my purchases being monitored. 
Am I just being overly paranoid, or does it ever cross your mind that you buying, is being monitored? 

[JamesH]

Agreed. All income used to procure metals is legit but I’d rather keep what I’m buying to myself and not have it shared with 3rd party agencies. Would certainly make sure I remain below the annual limits with individual dealers 👍🏼

[MJCOIN]

6 hours ago, scotwasp said:

Just wondering if anyone other than me considers not buying more than the reporting limit from any one dealer.  Not that I am buying with anything with other than taxed income, but why would you want to have them reporting you to HMRC?
in the US it’s any single purchase, which means they informally advise you to buy in instalments, but I understand that in the UK it’s annual spend.

I buy my pm to be a wee bit “off grid “ so I don’t really welcome my purchases being monitored. 
Am I just being overly paranoid, or does it ever cross your mind that you buying, is being monitored? 

AFAIK the £10k would have to be spent with one seller, separate purchases spread over two or more dealers wouldn't be reported as neither would know you've spent money with the other.

[modofantasma]

2 minutes ago, MJCOIN said:

AFAIK the £10k would have to be spent with one seller, separate purchases spread over two or more dealers wouldn't be reported as neither would know you've spent money with the other.

That's his point I think? 

To me the OP implies he'd rather spend less than £10k with each dealer. 

[modofantasma]

6 hours ago, scotwasp said:

Am I just being overly paranoid, or does it ever cross your mind that you buying, is being monitored? 

If you're paying by bank transfers or cards then it's all already monitored and traceable, whether or not there is an entity overlooking you can decide for yourself.

Most banks and companies have digital records which a computer could easily search and flag any outliers or anomalies for someone to investigate further. 

Your online accounts and activities can be linked to your devices and so on, if you were a specific target of an investigation then it would all be there. 

If you're buying in cash peer to peer less easily traced but that also has other risks and in theory could still be matched up to other people's records in some cases

 

[scotwasp]

Yip I get that, it’s the idea that they send a report to the government because you buy something I find a bit off.

If the government wants to know what you are spending your money on, then it would be pretty hard to stop them unless you use cash, but to have a report sent I personally think is big brother gone mad. 

[Gordy]

simple solution, buy off here, generally cheaper than dealers too... then no records, just a paper trail in your bank or paypal that you cant avoid

[LawrenceChard]

9 hours ago, scotwasp said:

Just wondering if anyone other than me considers not buying more than the reporting limit from any one dealer.  Not that I am buying with anything with other than taxed income, but why would you want to have them reporting you to HMRC?
in the US it’s any single purchase, which means they informally advise you to buy in instalments, but I understand that in the UK it’s annual spend.

I buy my pm to be a wee bit “off grid “ so I don’t really welcome my purchases being monitored. 
Am I just being overly paranoid, or does it ever cross your mind that you buying, is being monitored? 

You would end up paying more if you split your buying between the most competitive dealers and the rest.

If HMRC ever noticed you were trying to stay under the radar by spending just under £10K with multiple dealers, this might arouse great suspicion, because you would obviously be trying to conceal your activities from them. Anybody who was not brain-dead, would naturally wonder why!

Dealers, banks, and many other traders are legally required to report suspicious behaviour, whatever the amount.

😎

[CazLikesCoins]

10 hours ago, scotwasp said:

Just wondering if anyone other than me considers not buying more than the reporting limit from any one dealer.  Not that I am buying with anything with other than taxed income, but why would you want to have them reporting you to HMRC?
in the US it’s any single purchase, which means they informally advise you to buy in instalments, but I understand that in the UK it’s annual spend.

I buy my pm to be a wee bit “off grid “ so I don’t really welcome my purchases being monitored. 
Am I just being overly paranoid, or does it ever cross your mind that you buying, is being monitored? 

I don't think it ultimately matters what you spend or where if it's legitimate. They let us pretend we're 'off grid' but they're still watching us haha  

[scotwasp]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

You would end up paying more if you split your buying between the most competitive dealers and the rest.

If HMRC ever noticed you were trying to stay under the radar by spending just under £10K with multiple dealers, this might arouse great suspicion, because you would obviously be trying to conceal your activities from them. Anybody who was not brain-dead, would naturally wonder why!

Dealers, banks, and many other traders are legally required to report suspicious behaviour, whatever the amount.

😎

I get that it’s not the dealers fault, it just seams perverse that I can go into a jewellery shop and buy £250k of watches over a year (I wish) and no one cares, but buy £12k of sovereigns and they are forced to report.

It just stinks of government overreach and begs the question , why? 

I reckon it’s also pretty blooming unfair on the dealers. 

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, scotwasp said:

I get that it’s not the dealers fault, it just seams perverse that I can go into a jewellery shop and buy £250k of watches over a year (I wish) and no one cares, but buy £12k of sovereigns and they are forced to report.

It just stinks of government overreach and begs the question , why? 

I reckon it’s also pretty blooming unfair on the dealers. 

I think you might find that spending £250K at a jeweller in a year would go on the radar.

It certainly would if you paid it in cash!

Unfair? Perhaps, but most businesses are already unpaid tax collectors, and it is a distinct improvement over the days when the 1947 Exchange Control Order and Act were in force:

https://www.chards.co.uk/guides/exchange-control-act/785

Or when VAT applied to previously owned coins and gold coins, because the numismatic trade and UK bullion dealers did not have any political lobbying leverage. This also adversely affected collectors, investors, and stackers.

The AML and investment gold reporting are almost a blessing!

😎

[LawrenceChard]

12 hours ago, scotwasp said:

Crossing the £10k threshold

Just wondering if anyone other than me considers not buying more than the reporting limit from any one dealer.  Not that I am buying with anything with other than taxed income, but why would you want to have them reporting you to HMRC?
in the US it’s any single purchase, which means they informally advise you to buy in instalments, but I understand that in the UK it’s annual spend.

I buy my pm to be a wee bit “off grid “ so I don’t really welcome my purchases being monitored. 
Am I just being overly paranoid, or does it ever cross your mind that you buying, is being monitored? 

We just came back from one of our regular short walks along Bispham Promenade, and discovered we were on the route of a "run". Someone told us it was the Blackpool fun run, which I have done in the past, 10K in 45.45, which was frustrating as I had set myself a target of sub-45 minutes, harldy fast, but better than many.

It turned out to be a half marathon, which I have never attempted. My longest distance was 10 miles at Chorley,which went surprisingly well, and made me think I could attempt a half marathon, but I never did.

It always felt good when I was "Crossing the £10k threshold" or finishing line!

😎

[Bigmarc]

13 hours ago, scotwasp said:

Just wondering if anyone other than me considers not buying more than the reporting limit from any one dealer.  Not that I am buying with anything with other than taxed income, but why would you want to have them reporting you to HMRC?
in the US it’s any single purchase, which means they informally advise you to buy in instalments, but I understand that in the UK it’s annual spend.

I buy my pm to be a wee bit “off grid “ so I don’t really welcome my purchases being monitored. 
Am I just being overly paranoid, or does it ever cross your mind that you buying, is being monitored? 

I'm not that fussed about HMRC, I am more bothered about how the information is kept and stored. I am assuming the retailer had to keep a copy somewhere and wouldn't think it would be that hard for a hacker or villan to get hold of the information of all names and addresses of large purchases of gold. 

I remember reading a while back that after the first world war government kept records in the local town halls of who was living in the town, what religion they were and address. All Hitler had to do is walk in to the town hall and pick up the book. 

[LawrenceChard]

3 hours ago, Bigmarc said:

I'm not that fussed about HMRC, I am more bothered about how the information is kept and stored. I am assuming the retailer had to keep a copy somewhere and wouldn't think it would be that hard for a hacker or villan to get hold of the information of all names and addresses of large purchases of gold. 

I remember reading a while back that after the first world war government kept records in the local town halls of who was living in the town, what religion they were and address. All Hitler had to do is walk in to the town hall and pick up the book. 

Anyone who stores personal data has to take adequate security measures.

We at @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer certainly take our systems security seriously, and this includes customer data, which is only kept locally on a different server from our main systems.

We also have "Penetration Tests" performed, similar to those done for "payment processors", even though we are not required to have these, as we are not "payment processors".

I would hope that any major bullion dealer would have similar security, but I would bet against many of the minor coin or bullion dealers having anything approaching a highly secure level.

Another reason for choosing Chards!

😎

[bluemoon]

19 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

Anyone who stores personal data has to take adequate security measures.

We at @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer certainly take our systems security seriously, and this includes customer data, which is only kept locally on a different server from our main systems.

We also have "Penetration Tests" performed, similar to those done for "payment processors", even though we are not required to have these, as we are not "payment processors".

I would hope that any major bullion dealer would have similar security, but I would bet against many of the minor coin or bullion dealers having anything approaching a highly secure level.

Another reason for choosing Chards!

😎

The best personal data protection is to not take personal data at all. All talk of servers and encryption is a bandage over that initial act. This is why Sharps Pixley and Gold Investments are the current kings of gold dealers, as they take cash with no ID up to I think 7.5k.  And yes despite what competitors say, what they do is perfectly legal and yes they are very legitimate establishments. Any dealers claiming the law binds them to take your personal data for purchases below the threshold, when it doesn't, are to be viewed with suspicion.

Edited February 19, 2023 by bluemoon

[KleinerVogel]

Is the 10k reporting limit for all time sales or is it per year?

[daca]

7 hours ago, KleinerVogel said:

Is the 10k reporting limit for all time sales or is it per year?

per year

[scotwasp]

You can of course simply give your money to your brother/sister’mother/etc to buy for you if you don’t want to breach the threshold. 

[KleinerVogel]

26 minutes ago, daca said:

per year

Okay thanks. Nothing I need to worry about then, 10k per year on PM's is out of my league lol.

[Bigmarc]

What if you weigh in more than 10k?

[scotwasp]

2 minutes ago, Bigmarc said:

What if you weigh in more than 10k?

Never thought of that, I think that’s one for @LawrenceChard to answer 

[Paul]

Dip you're toe with each dealer. Rinse and rotate. Once you know your onions forums and bookface groups. Why be visible to big daddy governMint 

Also a trip to the coin fair works 

[LawrenceChard]

9 hours ago, KleinerVogel said:

Is the 10k reporting limit for all time sales or is it per year?

It is per 12 months rolling period.

2 hours ago, daca said:

per year

 

1 hour ago, Bigmarc said:

What if you weigh in more than 10k?

 

1 hour ago, scotwasp said:

Never thought of that, I think that’s one for @LawrenceChard to answer 

https://taxfreegold.co.uk/customsandexciseidentification.html

Customs & Excise Notification
We are obliged to report to HM Customs & Excise the first purchase of investment gold by any individual exceeding £5000, or any purchase which takes the individual's purchases within any 12 months period over £10,000.
Why?
We are frequently asked, about 20 times per day, why we have to take ID from purchasers. The simple answer is that it is a legal requirement, and we have no choice but to comply if we wish to carry on our business of dealing in investment gold. The only reason given to us is that it is an anti money laundering measure.
What Happens to the Information?
We retain customer identification as required, but do not divulge it to any third party, except to HM Customs & Excise, as necessary. We do not even use it for our own mailing purposes unless requested by customers, and then only rarely.
What Do Customs Do With the Data?
We do not know.
Presumably they check for known or suspected money launderers, and we guess this includes drug smugglers.

It should be easier to find on our Chards website.

😎
 

[Bigmarc]

I thought money laundering was a process I'm which you could safely buy stuff over 10 grand. If money was laundered successfully there should be no problems to criminals. Surely if the money was not laundered then it would raise flags. 

[Bratnia]

21 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

It is per 12 months rolling period.

 

 

https://taxfreegold.co.uk/customsandexciseidentification.html

Customs & Excise Notification
We are obliged to report to HM Customs & Excise the first purchase of investment gold by any individual exceeding £5000, or any purchase which takes the individual's purchases within any 12 months period over £10,000.
Why?
We are frequently asked, about 20 times per day, why we have to take ID from purchasers. The simple answer is that it is a legal requirement, and we have no choice but to comply if we wish to carry on our business of dealing in investment gold. The only reason given to us is that it is an anti money laundering measure.
What Happens to the Information?
We retain customer identification as required, but do not divulge it to any third party, except to HM Customs & Excise, as necessary. We do not even use it for our own mailing purposes unless requested by customers, and then only rarely.
What Do Customs Do With the Data?
We do not know.
Presumably they check for known or suspected money launderers, and we guess this includes drug smugglers.

It should be easier to find on our Chards website.

😎
 

Is it the same for sellers? If say a retiree had accumulated 240 one ounce gold Britannia's during their working years, and then was selling one/month to supplement their state pension income, £1500/month, £18,000/year to the same dealer, would that dealer be obligated to report that to HMRC?