“Coin Cabinet” - Serious concerns on customer service.

[Silverman2U]

Hi, would interested in peoples thoughts on how to approach this. I went into an auction with coin cabinet for 2 good 6 months ago now and resulted in issues. 
 

At the time the description read 2oz una and lion AG and 5oz Three Graces clear. And that both were from the royal mint. Given this description I put in a bid.  I won! Very happy!

… till I received the coins… 

2oz una and lion yes! … but instead of 5oz three graces it was a 2oz Three Graces.
 

All I wanted was these 2 coins as in description (Royal mint). I already had one 3 graces 2 ounce and had not expected another… finally they got call back to me. I advised happy to wait for solution… few weeks go by… nothing. I called again… “oh yes sorry” the implication it was it may have been from Alderney mint was implied to which I stated no as this was clearly indicated in description it was royal mint. 

… a good 4-6 months have now pasted and nothing. 

In summary, I am very happy with the Una and Lion 2oz coin which will all know are like hens teeth, but not on the fact I was sold it under false pretences for twice what I was expecting to pay an Una and the lion. I voiced this immediately at time both on phone and in an email to coin cabinet. 
 

PS. I cannot find them in the silver forum otherwise I would have written to them directly. 
 

** NOTE: If anyone out there knows anyone in the coin cabinet @LawrenceChard ?@James32? @BackyardBullion @ChrisSilver please help by passing this along from an unhappy customer who has spent £10Ks with them ** 

Regards.

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Silverman2U

[James32]

Don't know anyone in the coin cabinet unfortunately. 

But if you have original screenshot of misleading description, then assuming you paid by card,I'm sure you have ample grounds for a refund 🤔 

[LawrenceChard]

4 hours ago, Silverman2U said:

Hi, would interested in peoples thoughts on how to approach this. I went into an auction with coin cabinet for 2 good 6 months ago now and resulted in issues. 
 

At the time the description read 2oz una and lion AG and 5oz Three Graces clear. And that both were from the royal mint. Given this description I put in a bid.  I won! Very happy!

… till I received the coins… 

2oz una and lion yes! … but instead of 5oz three graces it was a 2oz Three Graces.
 

All I wanted was these 2 coins as in description (Royal mint). I already had one 3 graces 2 ounce and had not expected another… finally they got call back to me. I advised happy to wait for solution… few weeks go by… nothing. I called again… “oh yes sorry” the implication it was it may have been from Alderney mint was implied to which I stated no as this was clearly indicated in description it was royal mint. 

… a good 4-6 months have now pasted and nothing. 

In summary, I am very happy with the Una and Lion 2oz coin which will all know are like hens teeth, but not on the fact I was sold it under false pretences for twice what I was expecting to pay an Una and the lion. I voiced this immediately at time both on phone and in an email to coin cabinet. 
 

PS. I cannot find them in the silver forum otherwise I would have written to them directly. 
 

** NOTE: If anyone out there knows anyone in the coin cabinet @LawrenceChard ?@James32? @BackyardBullion @ChrisSilver please help by passing this along from an unhappy customer who has spent £10Ks with them ** 

Regards.

 

Your post is not absolutely clear, but...

Do you have a link to the "lot", and / or a screenshot.

Did you put your complaint to them in writing?

I have little knowledge of The Coin Cabinet apart from having seen them mentioned on TSF quite frequently.

😎

Edited January 31, 2023 by LawrenceChard

[LawrenceChard]

8 minutes ago, James32 said:

Don't know anyone in the coin cabinet unfortunately. 

But if you have original screenshot of misleading description, then assuming you paid by card,I'm sure you have ample grounds for a refund 🤔 

Presumably the OP does not want a full refund as there are 2 of the coins he does want, but does not want the third coin which he says was wrongly identified. If this is correct, he has a valid complaint and right to a remedy.

CC will presumably have paid the original owner, so will probably be reluctant to rescind the sale transaction, and even more reluctant to take back the least desirable of the three coins. Negotiating fair compensation for it would also potentially be difficult.

If the OP is correct, then this is yet another example of an auction house being less than scrupulous, but the OP has omitted including a link, screenshot, or other supporting "evidence" of his claim. This is all too common in consumer complaints.

😎

[James32]

1 minute ago, LawrenceChard said:

Presumably the OP does not want a full refund as there are 2 of the coins he does want, but does not want the third coin which he says was wrongly identified. If this is correct, he has a valid complaint and right to a remedy.

CC will presumably have paid the original owner, so will probably be reluctant to rescind the sale transaction, and even more reluctant to take back the least desirable of the three coins. Negotiating fair compensation for it would also potentially be difficult.

If the OP is correct, then this is yet another example of an auction house being less than scrupulous, but the OP has omitted including a link, screenshot, or other supporting "evidence" of his claim. This is all too common in consumer complaints.

😎

Yeah the 3 coin order will complicate everything tbf.

 

[Zhorro]

41 minutes ago, Silverman2U said:

Hi, would interested in peoples thoughts on how to approach this. I went into an auction with coin cabinet for 2 good 6 months ago now and resulted in issues. 
 

At the time the description read 2oz una and lion AG and 5oz Three Graces clear. And that both were from the royal mint. Given this description I put in a bid.  I won! Very happy!

… till I received the coins… 

2oz una and lion yes! … but instead of 5oz three graces it was a 2oz Three Graces.
 

All I wanted was these 2 coins as in description (Royal mint). I already had one 3 graces 2 ounce and had not expected another… finally they got call back to me. I advised happy to wait for solution… few weeks go by… nothing. I called again… “oh yes sorry” the implication it was it may have been from Alderney mint was implied to which I stated no as this was clearly indicated in description it was royal mint. 

… a good 4-6 months have now pasted and nothing. 

In summary, I am very happy with the Una and Lion 2oz coin which will all know are like hens teeth, but not on the fact I was sold it under false pretences for twice what I was expecting to pay an Una and the lion. I voiced this immediately at time both on phone and in an email to coin cabinet. 
 

PS. I cannot find them in the silver forum otherwise I would have written to them directly. 
 

** NOTE: If anyone out there knows anyone in the coin cabinet @LawrenceChard ?@James32? @BackyardBullion @ChrisSilver please help by passing this along from an unhappy customer who has spent £10Ks with them ** 

Regards.

 

I too am not clear about what has happened.  You bought a 2oz Una and the Lion which you are happy with, but then the Three Graces 5oz turned out to be a 2oz?  So, I would have thought you have overpaid on the Three Graces and not got what you expected to receive.  But I am not sure why at the end you say you paid twice what you expected to pay for the Una and the Lion.

[ChrisSilver]

This company cancelled their Official Sponsorship and advertising on TSF around the same time that another member which I will not name asked for their account and all information about them to be deleted when I called them out for directly trying to damage TSF and actively suggesting to members via PM to cancel their membership and go to his FB group instead, all while TSF was sponsoring their YT channel. 

I had felt that CC had used TSF to get awareness of their auctions and then cancelled their paid membership once enough TSF members were aware of them and also were possibly persuaded by the aforementioned member, I was aware that they had a business relationship. The reason they gave was that not enough members of TSF are interested in Gold. However, I had put up a public statement at the time (which has since been removed) and a member private messaged me at the time and said that the commission on his item alone would have been enough to cover several years of their membership fee. And of course, as many of you are aware there are many members of TSF who purchase gold and some exclusively gold.

Recently they actually emailed trying to buy TSF or offer me a job. Of course TSF is not for sale nor do I wish to work for them. 

Unfortunately @Silverman2U I am unable to help but as I was tagged in this post I just wanted to make my relationship with this company clear, and that TSF has no business relationship with CC. Hopefully if you reach out again via email they are able to help. 

[LawrenceChard]

47 minutes ago, ChrisSilver said:

This company cancelled their Official Sponsorship and advertising on TSF around the same time that another member which I will not name asked for their account and all information about them to be deleted when I called them out for directly trying to damage TSF and actively suggesting to members via PM to cancel their membership and go to his FB group instead, all while TSF was sponsoring their YT channel. 

I had felt that CC had used TSF to get awareness of their auctions and then cancelled their paid membership once enough TSF members were aware of them and also were possibly persuaded by the aforementioned member, I was aware that they had a business relationship. The reason they gave was that not enough members of TSF are interested in Gold. However, I had put up a public statement at the time (which has since been removed) and a member private messaged me at the time and said that the commission on his item alone would have been enough to cover several years of their membership fee. And of course, as many of you are aware there are many members of TSF who purchase gold and some exclusively gold.

Recently they actually emailed trying to buy TSF or offer me a job. Of course TSF is not for sale nor do I wish to work for them. 

Unfortunately @Silverman2U I am unable to help but as I was tagged in this post I just wanted to make my relationship with this company clear, and that TSF has no business relationship with CC. Hopefully if you reach out again visa email they are able to help. 

Thank you for the above information.

It is very informative!

😎

[arphethean]

Just to add my experience.

I bought a QV YH half sovereign which when it arrived I thought didn't match up to the "good Extremely Fine" grade given to it in the description.

To be fair to them the photos were adequate to make out the grade but I took it on the description rather than looking too closely at the photos. So they would have been well within their rights to decline my request for a refund but they swiftly invited me to return the coin and have issued my account with a credit for the full sum.

So I am surprised that they have not treated you with a similar service and have let this drag on!

[dicker]

Sounds like a very unsatisfactory situation.  I bought from CC while they were a TSF sponsor but stopped after the various circumstances outlined by @chrissilver above.

I had no issue with my purchase, the delivery etc

I am picky who I deal with….

Best

Dicker

 

 

 

 

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, dicker said:

Sounds like a very unsatisfactory situation.  I bought from CC while they were a TSF sponsor but stopped after the various circumstances outlined by @chrissilver above.

I had no issue with my purchase, the delivery etc

I am picky who I deal with….

Best

Dicker
 

Quite right too!

😎

[CollectForFun]

Was it this lot?

https://auctions.thecoincabinet.com/lots/view/4-6N6TOZ/2019-2020-lot-of-2-great-engraver-una-the-lion-three-graces-silver-5-pounds-25-pounds-pcgs-pr69-dcam-asw70001-oz

And the coin ended up being this one?

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/41803520

Edited January 31, 2023 by CollectForFun

[CollectForFun]

@Silverman2U try writing directly to the CEO Andreas Afeldt andreas@thecoincabinet.com if other communication channels didn't work.

On one hand, you are totally right that they misdescribed the Three Graces coin as 25 pounds 5oz Commonwealth Mint. On the other hand, it was clear from the photo it was the 5 pounds version. The matter is further complicated by the fact that it was a lot of 2 coins. I am afraid that strictly according to their T&C they are not responsible for not describing the coin correctly as you had the opportunity to check the actual coin although of course they should feel some level of responsibility against their customers for doing such a mistake.

[ArgentSmith]

 

2 hours ago, CollectForFun said:

I am afraid that strictly according to their T&C they are not responsible for not describing the coin correctly as you had the opportunity to check the actual coin

In an online auction surely the words and photos form the description as buyer only gets to properly check the coin once in hand? The listing still states total silver weight of 7oz, the buyer got 4oz 🤷‍♂️

[CollectForFun]

1 hour ago, ArgentSmith said:

In an online auction surely the words and photos form the description as buyer only gets to properly check the coin once in hand? The listing still states total silver weight of 7oz, the buyer got 4oz 

That would be the common expectation. But, the viewing of the lots was possible and you can be sure the T&Cs (and this applies to all auction houses, not just TCC) are not entirely in the bidder's favour:

17.6. WHERE A BUYER HAS HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO VIEW A LOT OR GOODS, THEY WAIVE THEIR RIGHT TO RAISE ANY OBJECTION IN RELATION TO SUCH LOT OR GOODS WHERE SUCH A VIEWING WOULD HAVE REASONABLY HIGHLIGHTED THE ISSUE IN QUESTION.

9.3. THE AUCTIONEER DOES NOT ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY GRADE MENTIONING OR OTHER ATTRIBUTION, AUTHORSHIP OR ESTIMATED PRICE OF ANY LOT, ANY REPRESENTATION OR SETTLEMENT BY THE AUCTIONEER IN ANY CATALOGUE, BROCHURE, OR ADVERTISEMENT. EVERY PERSON INTERESTED SHOULD EXERCISE AND RELY ON THEIR OWN JUDGEMENT AS TO SUCH MATTERS AND NEITHER THE AUCTIONEER NOR ITS EMPLOYEES OR AGENTS ACCEPT ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE CORRECTNESS OF SUCH OPINION OR INFORMATION.

Sorry for the caps, that's how they have it in their terms.

[AndrewSL76]

I am a customer of the Coin Cabinet. I have experiences of buying and consigning since the very early days. My experiences have generally always been excellent and whilst there have been issues in the past but they were always quickly resolved and the team there are really committed and excellent. As a positive example, I sold my full collection of QEII PR70 half sovereigns via them three years ago and the process was perfect from start to finish. Likewise when I sold some basic silver in MS70 - I received the same standards of care. As a negative example, I bought a coin that was advertised as an overdate and PCGS returned it to me as a wear isse and Coin Cabinet took it back from me and quickly refunded and then relisted the coin as it was now known to be a standard date. I think that Andreas is trustworthy and his small team are reliable too. This is of course just my own experience.

In terms of next steps, I would suggest that you telephone in and ask to speak with Louis. He is responsible for the auctions at the moment whilst Claire is away. He should be the best person to speak with.

As for the references above to the Terms and Conditions, whilst there are clear, I would always approach with caution and hope for discretion. You never know and I am sure that they want to resolve this situation. There is no reason for them not to!

[sovereignsteve]

Terms within their T&C that can be deemed as unfair or go against current consumer law cannot be enforced.

[ArgentSmith]

1 hour ago, sovereignsteve said:

Terms within their T&C that can be deemed as unfair or go against current consumer law cannot be enforced.

Agreed T&Cs don't trump Consumer Law, I guess it's just a question of whether they want to play hardball or not lol. Balls in your court @Silverman2U

[AndrewSL76]

Quite correct that no Terms and Conditions would ever be given a higher standing than any section of the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

Whilst most published Terms and Conditions are drafted to work in accordance with the CRA, there will be the odd occasion where a section in the T&Cs is in direct conflict with a section within the CRA - that is either because of poor legal advice or potentially an attempt to avoid a particular enforceable statutory obligation. However, on this occasion, The Coin Cabinet T&Cs are legally sound and totally in keeping with the CRA. That is probably because they hired a good lawyer to help them draft them (it was not me, I promise).

In relation to this specific matter, the CRA clearly sets out in Chapter 1 that where an item is second hand being sold at auction and an opportunity exists to view the item in person, a person will not be a 'consumer' in relation to a sales contract.  

So - important to note that section 17.6 of The Coin Cabinet's Terms and Conditions (helpfully shared by @CollectForFun sets out clearly that: 17.6. WHERE A BUYER HAS HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO VIEW A LOT OR GOODS, THEY WAIVE THEIR RIGHT TO RAISE ANY OBJECTION IN RELATION TO SUCH LOT OR GOODS WHERE SUCH A VIEWING WOULD HAVE REASONABLY HIGHLIGHTED THE ISSUE IN QUESTION.

Taking into account the specific situation as set out by @Silverman2U - The Coin Cabinet have every right in law to refuse the return of the coin in question and to refund in full because we as their customers are not 'consumers' in law given that the items being offered are either second hand or offered at auction. As we are not 'consumers' (per the definition in Chapter 1), s.11 of the CRA (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/11/enacted) does not apply.

On first reading of s.11 you would think it does apply, but like every good piece of legislation, the key section is the definitions section and in this case, the actual fact is that s.11 does not apply as we are not a 'consumer' as defined in Chapter 1 of the CRA. 

Hence my point re asking for discretion and relying on goodwill. I would suggest that whilst The Coin Cabinet are not lawfully obliged to do anything here, they should be asked to exercise their discretion regardless because it is good business to do so and because in doing so they would acknowledge that everyone makes mistakes from time to time. 

[sovereignsteve]

So you can go to the CC premises in person to view their auction items? I didn't know that.

[ArgentSmith]

3 hours ago, AndrewSL76 said:

17.6. WHERE A BUYER HAS HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO VIEW A LOT OR GOODS, THEY WAIVE THEIR RIGHT TO RAISE ANY OBJECTION IN RELATION TO SUCH LOT OR GOODS WHERE SUCH A VIEWING WOULD HAVE REASONABLY HIGHLIGHTED THE ISSUE IN QUESTION.

 

Presumably the OP didn't have the opportunity to view the lot in person. If he had I'm sure he would have said?

[AndrewSL76]

8 minutes ago, ArgentSmith said:

Presumably the OP didn't have the opportunity to view the lot in person. If he had I'm sure he would have said?

Anyone who wants to bid on items being offered for sale (via their Market Place or in auctions) can contact them to view the items. That is clear.

Whether it is practical for a person to do so or not is irrelevant. If they decide not to because they live on the other side of the planet, then that is their choice. The choice is there. If they then lodge bids having not viewed the items, that is their choice.

If you decide you can’t visit to inspect because you are on the other side of the planet and yet you still bid, then any arising situation is for you to manage.

On this occasion whilst the law is on the side of Coin Cabinet, I would hope that they would recognise the mistake made and seek to work things out regardless. As it is good business to do so. Especially where a customer (not ‘consumer’!) is enjoyed. 

Edited February 2, 2023 by AndrewSL76

[AndrewSL76]

13 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

So you can go to the CC premises in person to view their auction items? I didn't know that.

Yes! They have a lovely office space near Marble Arch. Very welcoming. I have been there a few times. Highly recommended. Callum showed me some of their incredible Market Place coins recently. I highly recommend a visit if you’re in London. 

[PhilOdgny]

Are the Distance Selling Regulations applicable to this?

https://www.gov.uk/online-and-distance-selling-for-businesses

[Roy]

On 31/01/2023 at 03:24, LawrenceChard said:

Presumably the OP does not want a full refund as there are 2 of the coins he does want, but does not want the third coin which he says was wrongly identified. If this is correct, he has a valid complaint and right to a remedy.

 

On 31/01/2023 at 03:27, James32 said:

Yeah the 3 coin order will complicate everything tbf.

Confused?

The OP is talking about two coins, where did a third appear from?