Whoopsie Daisy...gold coin can't pass (old) PMV

[JohnA1]

not nice

Better be paranoid I guess..

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, JohnA1 said:

not nice

Better be paranoid I guess..

I quick résumé would have been handy!

😎

[daca]

bla bla bla bla bla bla fake 1904 $20 Gold coin bought from LCS

bla bla bla bla bla bla Sigma Metalytics Metal Verifier

bla bla bla bla bla bla buy a Sigma  / pocket pinger

bla bla bla bla bla bla test your metals

 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by daca

[modofantasma]

40 minutes ago, daca said:

bla bla bla bla bla bla fake 1904 $20 Gold coin bought from LCS

bla bla bla bla bla bla Sigma Metalytics Metal Verifier

bla bla bla bla bla bla buy a Sigma  / pocket pinger

bla bla bla bla bla bla test your metals

 

 

 

Quite a concise summary 

[ArgentSmith]

LCS guy:  "So I went back to the guy and said one of these is not testing out and he (trusted dealer he sourced from) goes Oh I had one about the same vintage I had one that didn't test out, he said I thought all those were good. He's a long time dealer I certainly trust 🤪 

Punter: bla bla bla

LCS guy: So the message is I shouldn't sell anything to anyone with a verifier 😂

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

I quick résumé would have been handy!

😎

 

1 hour ago, daca said:

bla bla bla bla bla bla fake 1904 $20 Gold coin bought from LCS

bla bla bla bla bla bla Sigma Metalytics Metal Verifier

bla bla bla bla bla bla buy a Sigma  / pocket pinger

bla bla bla bla bla bla test your metals

 

58 minutes ago, modofantasma said:

Quite a concise summary 

 

13 minutes ago, ArgentSmith said:

LCS guy:  "So I went back to the guy and said one of these is not testing out and he (trusted dealer he sourced from) goes Oh I had one about the same vintage I had one that didn't test out, he said I thought all those were good. He's a long time dealer I certainly trust 🤪 

Punter: bla bla bla

LCS guy: So the message is I shouldn't sell anything to anyone with a verifier 😂

Those were all very helpful, and also entertaining!

😎

[Happypanda88]

I watched the video a couple of days ago and thought it must have been really embarassing for a seasoned bullion dealer to pass on a fake coin.

But where were all the bla bla bla dialogues come from ? 

I watched it at x1.5 speed as I do with most YT videos and didn't hear it. 😎

[JohnA1]

Exactly.

I posted it because it shows a seasoned dealer passing off a fake.

Several months ago I came across a video (can't find it now) showing a gold ounce coin that had been expertly cut and inside was a tungsten slug.

So the external coin was original, really hard to tell if you didn't know it's dodgy. It would pass the weight test, it would pass specific gravity test. It would probably also pass a quick neodymium magnet test.

It would also pass the old PMV because it was not plated. Half of the total weight (roughly) was not gold though.

Scary..

[Happypanda88]

37 minutes ago, JohnA1 said:

Exactly.

I posted it because it shows a seasoned dealer passing off a fake.

Several months ago I came across a video (can't find it now) showing a gold ounce coin that had been expertly cut and inside was a tungsten slug.

So the external coin was original, really hard to tell if you didn't know it's dodgy. It would pass the weight test, it would pass specific gravity test. It would probably also pass a quick neodymium magnet test.

It would also pass the old PMV because it was not plated. Half of the total weight (roughly) was not gold though.

Scary..

I have heard and read articles of large gold bars made of tungsten and wrapped in a thin layer of gold so that it passes most tests. But I have not heard about legit 1oz gold coins wrapped around a tungsten. That sounds like a lot of work as 1oz gold coins are small in size. I like to see that video if you can find it.

[daca]

 

[MrStacker]

I watched this when it first came out as I really enjoy Yankee’s channel. 😀
 

If you skip to around 3:12 when Yankee is holding the coin for the viewers to see a close up - the ridge doesn’t look right to me. That was my hunch anyway. 

You can’t depend solely on one device/tool for testing coins. It’s always good to double check other methods just in case. 

[JohnA1]

Nice video, hadn't seen it before.

It is not the one I saw, that one had a round slug inside a real coin that was (very expertly) engineered to cut off the top and create a perfect hole for the tungsten slug (it was smooth).

It looked like half of the original coin mass was retained, it was not a thin wrapper. Everything you'd touch (ridges and all) would be original.

I found it alarmingly good

[JohnA1]

On 21/01/2023 at 10:43, Happypanda88 said:

I have heard and read articles of large gold bars made of tungsten and wrapped in a thin layer of gold so that it passes most tests. But I have not heard about legit 1oz gold coins wrapped around a tungsten. That sounds like a lot of work as 1oz gold coins are small in size. I like to see that video if you can find it.

Haven't found the video, but the link below is from 2014

https://goldcoinbalance.com/fake-tungsten-gold-coins

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by JohnA1

[JohnA1]

Annoying electronic voice, yes.

 

At 7'30'' it shows a gold eagle with a tungsten slug inside.

I guess this one would fool the old Sigma easily - too thick gold casing. Certainly not microns..

 

 

[ArgentSmith]

1 hour ago, JohnA1 said:

Annoying electronic voice, yes.

 

At 7'30'' it shows a gold eagle with a tungsten slug inside.

I guess this one would fool the old Sigma easily - too thick gold casing. Certainly not microns..

 

 

Great advice in that video.

Tungsten is so close to SG of gold it would be impossible to detect using kitchen table techniques. Interesting the sigma pro is likely to detect tungsten core. The regular Sigma machine is useful for fine gold and silver in so far that it quickly performs a magnet and acid scratch test. As this video says a fake with tungsten core will likely fool SG tests and likely fool acid test, but unlikely fool (I say near impossible) a ping test or Ultra sound test.

A sure fire way to establish a coin doesn't have a tungsten core is a ping test, performed sensibly/with care this will not damage the coin.

[JohnA1]

For flat bars that are too thick to check using the PMV pro, what do people think of this puppy?

https://testyourgold.com

Not suitable for coins unfortunately.

According to these fellars XRF machines only go through microns - I thought they go all the way through the metal, but then again I'm not in the business.

Obviously the PMV wands only go through a fraction of a mm, the small wand of Pro Mini 0.18mm. That's probably not enough for bars drilled.

Wow, if the XRF scanners don't go through and through, who knows how much counterfeit stuff is waiting to be discovered😱

Edited March 22, 2023 by JohnA1

[Midasfrog]

On 21/01/2023 at 11:38, daca said:

 

@James32 and @Charliemouse 

[JohnA1]

On 21/03/2023 at 17:27, ArgentSmith said:

A sure fire way to establish a coin doesn't have a tungsten core is a ping test, performed sensibly/with care this will not damage the coin.

I've got a pocket pinger - you don't strictly need it, but it makes it far easier to get accurate & repeatable results.

Coupled with a coin ping app it can be very useful. Wouldn't say 'sure-fire' but if this test fails for a coin known to work, then you've got a red flag and should look deeper.

I've managed to get all three resonant frequencies hit jackpot for a different coin than the app claimed, so it is not infallible. It is cheap and useful though only for coins.

I've been thinking that tungsten/copper inserts can be used to fake silver bars. Carefully calculated insert sizes could mimic the exact specific gravity. Copper is cheap but lighter, tungsten is twice as dense. The right combo can be identical to silver.  Thinking about it, if I am not able to check through the bar, I wouldn't be happy that it is legit.

I've ordered a cheap-n-cheerful ultrasound gizmo to investigate if it can be used for through-checking PM coins/bars. Particularly thick bars, since coins are covered by the PMV-Pro

[JohnA1]

At 13:30 this guy has an ASE that passes the old sigma but he believes it is a fake.

No idea why he doesn't even bother to use a free phone app for the ping test.

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by JohnA1

[CazLikesCoins]

16 minutes ago, JohnA1 said:

At 13:30 this guy has an ASE that passes the old sigma but he believes it is a fake.

No idea why he doesn't even bother to use a free phone app for the ping test.

 

 

 

£1000 machine v £5 a pop tweezers off eBay. I wonder if he's wrong about the silver being fake.

[JohnA1]

He could be wrong, but the old Sigma won't see through the coin so if it has a slug inside it would be fooled.

Not sure if anyone would bother to go this far for a ASE, but who knows...

If he were to use a (free) PingCoin app we'd be able to see if the resonant frequencies are off or not

[JohnA1]

another tungsten fake coin, ouch

 

 

[JohnA1]

[CazLikesCoins]

2 hours ago, JohnA1 said:

Reminds me of peeling on chocolate coins as a child.

Edited June 2, 2023 by CazLikesCoins
missed the L

[JohnA1]

The gold casing looks thick enough to fool XREF and Sigma 'classic' 😨