Grading

[SlowFrog]

Hi,

I have recently seen a few people cracking coins out of NGC/PCGS cases due to a disappointing grading. As someone that's never sent a coin off for grading, I would have thought that they'd let you know the grading before asking if you wish to proceed with entombment. So my question is; do you get the choice to say, "nah, just send it back as is please" or do they encase the coin regardless as it's part of the service?

If they do just proceed, do you think it'd make sense for them to ask prior to doing so? The only reason I can think of just doing it is to document every submission and build a library of all coins - good and bad, and perhaps it's a valid reason if that's the case. It could also be viewed as just cluttering their database if those coins most likely get removed anyhow?

I don't really have a strong opinion either way but I'm leaning towards the idea that I'd like to be asked. Any further info/insights/viewpoints welcome! 

 

[SilverJacks]

Both grading services are inundated despite expanding their operations. If they had to ask how to proceed after every assessment, the service would probably be unmanageable. 

In and ideal world you could engage in dialogue with them on each coin, but in reality I don't think it's possible. They just grade them and slab them ( or not slab them if they deem it ungradable). They won't even elaborate on decision making. For example, if your coin gets a details notation, like say " Questionable colour" or "improperly cleaned" - that's the only information you'll get.

I have even heard of them deeming legit coins as counterfeit, offering no explanation as to why, and when resubmitted, comes back genuine. I guess they're a law unto themselves really. You just gotta hope for the best...

Edited December 22, 2022 by SilverJacks

[SlowFrog]

33 minutes ago, SilverJacks said:

Both grading services are inundated despite expanding their operations. If they had to ask how to proceed after every assessment, the service would probably be unmanageable. 

In and ideal world you could engage in dialogue with them on each coin, but in reality I don't think it's possible. They just grade them and slab them ( or not slab them if they deem it ungradable). They won't even elaborate on decision making. For example, if your coin gets a details notation, like say " Questionable colour" or "improperly cleaned" - that's the only information you'll get.

I have even heard of them deeming legit coins as counterfeit, offering no explanation as to why, and when resubmitted, comes back genuine. I guess they're a law unto themselves really. You just gotta hope for the best...

Thanks so much for the info! Very interesting to someone that's never been through the process.

I feel like that eventually, submissions will have an online progress report with various stages (similar to mail tracking services) and then you might be able to choose options that instruct them on how to proceed. At least, if I was running such a business, that's how I'd tackle it.

[SilverJacks]

You do get a progress report, but it's very basic. 

8 minutes ago, SlowFrog said:

and then you might be able to choose options that instruct them on how to proceed.

This would be great for us all and you might be right, in future they may get there. As things stand though, they're taking several months to get through the process. It's still a worthwhile service though.

[Simonz]

Great idea, wouldn't be hard to add another choice on the submission form, like the cross grading options? Would give a bit of extra profit for graders saving on slabs?

[ZRPMs]

55 minutes ago, Simonz said:

Great idea, wouldn't be hard to add another choice on the submission form, like the cross grading options? Would give a bit of extra profit for graders saving on slabs?

I would have thought it might even help speed up the slabbing process for them and improve the lead times.

[Fenlander1]

Interesting topic hank you I have been thinking about getting some coins graded just a little unsure if grading something like a gold 1oz kangeroo would be beneficial financially.

[modofantasma]

43 minutes ago, Fenlander1 said:

Interesting topic hank you I have been thinking about getting some coins graded just a little unsure if grading something like a gold 1oz kangeroo would be beneficial financially.

I was in a similar boat recently. I understand bullion, I can work a value out based on spot price usually. Most bullion I would not bother grading unless it was a particularly nice example of an older coin or a proof coin that I wanted to protect further than 'just' a capsule. Modern bullion issues I don't think there would be a financial benefit.

There are a lot of more knowledgeable people on here when it  comes to grading than myself though, I'm sure @GoldDiggerDave will have some further insight when he comes across the thread too. 

As for the OP's question, it does make sense if someone submitting is going to remove the coin on a result they're not happy with but I can see pros and cons 

[GoldDiggerDave]

2 hours ago, Fenlander1 said:

Interesting topic hank you I have been thinking about getting some coins graded just a little unsure if grading something like a gold 1oz kangeroo would be beneficial financially.

It all depends on the market, some 1oz gold Queens beast bullion coins have down very well.  I’ve not seen any kangaroos across my table.  

[GoldDiggerDave]

16 hours ago, SlowFrog said:

Hi,

I have recently seen a few people cracking coins out of NGC/PCGS cases due to a disappointing grading. As someone that's never sent a coin off for grading, I would have thought that they'd let you know the grading before asking if you wish to proceed with entombment. So my question is; do you get the choice to say, "nah, just send it back as is please" or do they encase the coin regardless as it's part of the service?

If they do just proceed, do you think it'd make sense for them to ask prior to doing so? The only reason I can think of just doing it is to document every submission and build a library of all coins - good and bad, and perhaps it's a valid reason if that's the case. It could also be viewed as just cluttering their database if those coins most likely get removed anyhow?

I don't really have a strong opinion either way but I'm leaning towards the idea that I'd like to be asked. Any further info/insights/viewpoints welcome! 

 

Nothing is perfect and you are dealing with humans subjectively grading a coin on a given day, can you cut out and re submit and get a better grade?  Yes  sometimes you get the same grade back. 
 

 

[SilverJacks]

3 hours ago, Fenlander1 said:

Interesting topic hank you I have been thinking about getting some coins graded just a little unsure if grading something like a gold 1oz kangeroo would be beneficial financially.

On the plus side, even if it doesn’t add any value, which it probably won’t if it’s just general bullion, at least you have the coin stored in a holder that certifies it as genuine. It could make it an easier sale than a raw coin, potentially.

[Silverlocks]

3 hours ago, Fenlander1 said:

Interesting topic hank you I have been thinking about getting some coins graded just a little unsure if grading something like a gold 1oz kangeroo would be beneficial financially.

Probably not, at least not in the short term.  For grading and slabbing to enhance the value of a coin significantly, the coin needs to be rare in good condition and desirable for that rarity.  At high grades some widely circulated coins can command a significant premium because good examples are rare.  American Morgan dollars are a good example of this.  They're quite common in circulated conditions but very unusual to find in really good nick and a high grade can add many hundreds of dollars to the price.  

I think most modern gold bullion coins probably aren't worth grading as they are largely going to be in mint condition anyway, having spent their entire lives being admired from afar in a capsule, so there's no rarity value.  As a longer term investment you might see a return on the cost of grading, but that's a cr4pshoot at the best of times.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Silverlocks

[Fenlander1]

Thank you for the interesting insights into the world of grading. It certainly is an interesting subject to study.

[Silverlocks]

32 minutes ago, Fenlander1 said:

Thank you for the interesting insights into the world of grading. It certainly is an interesting subject to study.

A good start for folks domiciled in the UK would be Allen's Grading British Coins.  I found it quite instructive to understanding what grading works off - mostly wear, with dings and surfaces scratches mostly only mattering at higher grades (EF or better).  In fact, it only took 10 or 15 minutes reading through the book for the penny to drop, so to speak.

I've got one American grading book, which was useful for explaining the Sheldon scale, and had pictures of American coins.  You can sort of translate the principles to other coins, but I found Allen's book on British coins was quite good as a quick guide, as it shows what the wear patterns look like on coins you'll find here in the UK.  

What I haven't seen in grading books is a good discussion of edge cases - where does a gVF become an aboutEF, or an EF become an aboutUNC, for example.

Grading is not rocket science, although it is a bit subjective.  I think getting a handle on grading is useful for looking at older coins like sovereigns or world gold, less useful for modern bullion coins.  

Edited December 23, 2022 by Silverlocks

[dicker]

On 23/12/2022 at 14:28, GoldDiggerDave said:

It all depends on the market, some 1oz gold Queens beast bullion coins have down very well.  I’ve not seen any kangaroos across my table.  

Kanga’s (or Nuggets as they used to be) are under appreciated.  The earlier Nuggets (proof and bullion) are rather nice and very of the time.  Proofs can often be purchased for very little over their bullion versions, and I have bought a Nugget from a dealer as bullion which was in fact proof - I think they just didn’t know or it was sold to them as bullion.

HOWEVER, nuggets remain niche / unpopular for some reason, and I am not surprised they are infrequently graded.  
 

Best

Dicker