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Royal Mint Quality & NGC Grading


MROTOR

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Hello! 
I am sure this topic has probably been brought up before but I’m new to the RM and this forum and would like to have an open discussion regarding the quality of coins coming out of the Mint and how they are given high grades by NGC.

2022 has been a remarkable year for me personally and I wanted to commemorate it with a Sovereign being a special year sovereign and all.

I am currently on my 3rd PF70 coin that came with the similar issues and Im baffled how the Mint gets away with it let alone NGC grading them as a PF70.




29DDBE1F-F255-4B41-BB6F-3447BCA3FEF6.thumb.jpeg.6eeaf052242efb1ed44be9273f053dd6.jpegD5EA97C0-09E0-4F5E-A4C6-AC4397DB519C.thumb.jpeg.d13857f582f3a6daab030be553e76441.jpeg

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5 hours ago, TeaTime said:

To achieve a '70' rating a coin must show no imperfections that are deemed not as a result of the minting process.... 

oddly enough one of the coins did have nicks on the lion on top of the crown and on the edges- no clue how that was given a pf70!

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11 hours ago, TeaTime said:

To achieve a '70' rating a coin must show no imperfections that are deemed not as a result of the minting process.... 

6 hours ago, MROTOR said:

oddly enough one of the coins did have nicks on the lion on top of the crown and on the edges- no clue how that was given a pf70!

Perhaps we need to redefine "mint condition"!

😎

Chards

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13 hours ago, MROTOR said:

I am currently on my 3rd PF70 coin that came with the similar issues and Im baffled how the Mint gets away with it let alone NGC grading them as a PF70.

These are coins that came already graded from the mint?

I wouldn't worry about it. If you want a perfect coin, then purchase one after you have inspected it. If you want a grade 70 coin, then just buy one and don't worry about it's condition, the vast majority of people will buy on the basis of the grade alone. It won't affect it's value.

Profile picture with thanks to Carl Vernon

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13 hours ago, MROTOR said:

Hello! 
I am sure this topic has probably been brought up before but I’m new to the RM and this forum and would like to have an open discussion regarding the quality of coins coming out of the Mint and how they are given high grades by NGC.

2022 has been a remarkable year for me personally and I wanted to commemorate it with a Sovereign being a special year sovereign and all.

I am currently on my 3rd PF70 coin that came with the similar issues and Im baffled how the Mint gets away with it let alone NGC grading them as a PF70.




29DDBE1F-F255-4B41-BB6F-3447BCA3FEF6.thumb.jpeg.6eeaf052242efb1ed44be9273f053dd6.jpegD5EA97C0-09E0-4F5E-A4C6-AC4397DB519C.thumb.jpeg.d13857f582f3a6daab030be553e76441.jpeg

I can point my macro lens on my iPhone 13pro at any coin and find an irregularly, PF70UC dose not mean 100% perfection because nothing is.  

Are you new to coin or proof collecting? 

 

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

I can point my macro lens on my iPhone 13pro at any coin and find an irregularly, PF70UC dose not mean 100% perfection because nothing is.  

Are you new to coin or proof collecting? 

 

 

 

 

 


 

Hi Dave, no I am not new to collecting or proof coins. I collect proofs and high reliefs from the Perth Mint and the only issue I ever found in the past 8 years was a tiny spot of missing frosting on a letter. 
 

I don’t expect 100% perfection but I expect a coin they doesn’t look dirty with random frosting spots all over, dings or enough flaws to make or visibly unattractive. 

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15 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

These are coins that came already graded from the mint?

I wouldn't worry about it. If you want a perfect coin, then purchase one after you have inspected it. If you want a grade 70 coin, then just buy one and don't worry about it's condition, the vast majority of people will buy on the basis of the grade alone. It won't affect it's value.

I’m not concerned about the value as much as I am concerned about a coin that presents well. I already paid more than double retail on it so it’s not like it’s an investment piece with more than 10k made. 

35 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

Perhaps we need to redefine "mint condition"!

😎

That would be a great start! 
 

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4 hours ago, MROTOR said:

I’m not concerned about the value as much as I am concerned about a coin that presents well. I already paid more than double retail on it so it’s not like it’s an investment piece with more than 10k made. 

That would be a great start! 
 

I live in Perth and have bought a lot of Perth mint coins. Have only ever had one problem with a coin otherwise the quality of their coins (proof and bullion) is excellent. I would really like to be able to do a comparison between the quality control of the UK Royal Mint and Perth Mint. 

See the link below to my coin dedicated YouTube channel

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC32DEmDzkaZCBTBVTDiYr0A

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9 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Perhaps we need to redefine "mint condition"!

😎

You guys have the ungraded proof sovereign in stock- any chance you do pre-sale inspection service? 😁 

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7 hours ago, CoinStruck said:

I live in Perth and have bought a lot of Perth mint coins. Have only ever had one problem with a coin otherwise the quality of their coins (proof and bullion) is excellent. I would really like to be able to do a comparison between the quality control of the UK Royal Mint and Perth Mint. 

I’m not sure we’re ready for that…

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13 hours ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

I can point my macro lens on my iPhone 13pro at any coin and find an irregularly, PF70UC dose not mean 100% perfection because nothing is.  

Now, that's a bit exaggerating, isn't it. Maybe the Royal Mint coins are all such but I am sure there are mints who are capable of producing coins without imperfections, if they really want to.

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46 minutes ago, CollectForFun said:

Now, that's a bit exaggerating, isn't it. Maybe the Royal Mint coins are all such but I am sure there are mints who are capable of producing coins without imperfections, if they really want to.

No it’s not an exaggeration…….and I do have high volumes of coins though my hands l could reject 99.99% of all proof coins that go though my hands………don’t get me wrong I do reject rerun those that I feel will not achieve a PF70UC.  For those hypersensitive to this would be better off sticking to bullion coins.  
 

like it or not modern proof coins are made with irregularities it’s a simply the result of the manufacturing  process.

if a coin is graded PF70UC then it’s a PF70UC you really can’t expect to keep asking for another bite at the cherry.  
 

 

Edited by GoldDiggerDave
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5 hours ago, MROTOR said:

You guys have the ungraded proof sovereign in stock- any chance you do pre-sale inspection service? 😁 

Sure, as we are still "bricks and mortar" as well as online, potential customers can call in and see what they are about to buy.

I realise this may be difficulot for you living in Canada.

Now, if we had a branch in Blackpool, Canada, it might help, but even then you may be a few thousand miles away.

😎

Chards

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14 hours ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

I can point my macro lens on my iPhone 13pro at any coin and find an irregularly, PF70UC dose not mean 100% perfection because nothing is.

I once said that MS70 or PF70 was impossible. I stand by that statement.

 

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15 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Perhaps we need to redefine "mint condition"!

😎

42 minutes ago, SidS said:

Mint condition is simply the state they left the mint in, and we all know how that can turn out. 😁

Yes, I understand and agree that in common usage "mint condition" means perfect, and this is what most people would understand by the expression.

Wikipedia states:

Mint condition is an expression used to denote the quality of a pre-owned good as displaying virtually no imperfections and being in pristine condition relative to its original production state. Originally, the phrase related to the way collectors described the condition of coins. As the name given to a coin factory is a "mint", then mint condition is the condition a coin is in when it leaves the mint

and also:

Mint condition, a state of like-new quality

Merriam Webster gives:

Perfect condition : a state of being like new
as in "He kept the car in mint condition."

Collins Dictionary:

If you say that something is in mint condition, you mean that it is in perfect condition.

in perfect condition; as if new

Cambridge Dictionary:

in excellent condition, as if new:

Macmillan Dictionary:

In new or perfect condition


Urban Dictionary:

A condition where something is perfect or as if it was originally manufactured.

A state where something has no flaws.

Dictionary.Com:

In excellent condition, unblemished, perfect, as in This car is in mint condition. This expression alludes to the condition of a freshly minted coin. [c. 1900]

The Word Counter has a long entry about "mint condition", which includes citations from a number of other sources including some of the above.

 

One conlsusion we can draw is that it can mean perfect, or it can mean as it left the mint, and this latter alternative implies that "as is left the mint" is not necessarily the same as perfect.

As evidence of that point, there are many "mint error" coins which are clearly not perfect, but almost certainly left the mint in that imperfect state.

😎

Chards

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40 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

One conlsusion we can draw is that it can mean perfect, or it can mean as it left the mint, and this latter alternative implies that "as is left the mint" is not necessarily the same as perfect.

As evidence of that point, there are many "mint error" coins which are clearly not perfect, but almost certainly left the mint in that imperfect state.

😎

I always go with the second definition - as it left the mint.

Mint state is lost once the coins start to be circulated. So UNC coins can have bag marks, edge knocks from their production and initial packaging - but must show no wear (die wear would be allowed however).

Edited by SidS
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3 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Sure, as we are still "bricks and mortar" as well as online, potential customers can call in and see what they are about to buy.

I realise this may be difficulot for you living in Canada.

Now, if we had a branch in Blackpool, Canada, it might help, but even then you may be a few thousand miles away.

😎

Ha! I’ll just request that you inspect it beforehand 😆

I did have a very positive experience with you guys recently. The level of communication and effort the staff put in to accommodate me was exceptional. Thank you again!

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4 hours ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

No it’s not an exaggeration…….and I do have high volumes of coins though my hands l could reject 99.99% of all proof coins that go though my hands………don’t get me wrong I do reject rerun those that I feel will not achieve a PF70UC.  For those hypersensitive to this would be better off sticking to bullion coins.  
 

like it or not modern proof coins are made with irregularities it’s a simply the result of the manufacturing  process.

if a coin is graded PF70UC then it’s a PF70UC you really can’t expect to keep asking for another bite at the cherry.  
 

 

Again, there are no expectations of a perfect coin whatsoever. There is a difference between natural flaws caused by the process of minting and respectful handling and the deliberate laziness and lack of care.
 

The proof coins coming out of the RM today show very little respect to their collector base as they can’t even bother to ensure what they are selling at the very least present well. 
 

The number of videos on YouTube and pictures on this forum about the disappointing quality coming from the RM is a good indication of how low their QC is. You don’t see the same regarding the Perth Mint or RCM.
 

 

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24 minutes ago, MROTOR said:

The number of videos on YouTube and pictures on this forum about the disappointing quality coming from the RM is a good indication of how low their QC is. You don’t see the same regarding the Perth Mint or RCM.

A simple question, not a criticism in any way, is it disappointing quality or more that modern day collectors have higher standards? Or both perhaps?

As to what I mean by higher standards, twenty years ago, very few people in the UK used the Sheldon grading system. MS70 or PF70 were just some nit picking US distinction.

We simply referred to coins as UNC (basic UNC - including toned coins), BU (bright and full of mint lustre) or Gem BU (Sharp, well struck, a near perfect specimen). Basically three levels of UNC. Obviously for proofs you had simply: Proof, or for really sharp and unblemished pieces Fleur De Coin - FDC.

That was it.

I'm yet to be able to distinguish between MS68, MS69 and MS70. Seems eye appeal accounts for much of the differences. Which of course is entirely subjective.

 

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9 hours ago, StackemHigh said:

I still like the old description "FDC" or Fleur de coin (Preserved in the best possible condition)

Yesterday I saw a pair of FDC Club silver medals, or more correctly a medal and a badge.

These were gifts the Royal Mint used to send to its biggest spending private customers.

I have seen these before, and there are old photos here:

https://24carat.co.uk/frame.php?url=fdcmedallionroyalmintfleurdecoinclubmember.html

The reason I was shown a set yesterday is that one of our team had spotted a spelling error on the certificate which came with them.

I will get a photo of the certificate, with and without the error highlighted.

😎

Chards

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12 hours ago, StackemHigh said:

I still like the old description "FDC" or Fleur de coin (Preserved in the best possible condition)

 

3 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Yesterday I saw a pair of FDC Club silver medals, or more correctly a medal and a badge.

These were gifts the Royal Mint used to send to its biggest spending private customers.

I have seen these before, and there are old photos here:

https://24carat.co.uk/frame.php?url=fdcmedallionroyalmintfleurdecoinclubmember.html

The reason I was shown a set yesterday is that one of our team had spotted a spelling error on the certificate which came with them.

I will get a photo of the certificate, with and without the error highlighted.

😎

If we said a car was F.D.C. instead of mint condition, it might be misunderstood as something completely different.

😎

Edited by LawrenceChard

Chards

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