Discolouration on Gold Bars?

[Mcgrimes]

About 2.5 years ago, I bought a not insignificant number of golds bars from a supplier. I wasn’t happy with the delivery, generally, as the certicards were low quality (easy to open, marked, stressed around corners turning white). In all cases, I kept them as they were reasonably priced compared to other dealers, and it was the height of covid.

Ive still got most of these bars of gold, and today I got my collection out for inspection/inventory and noticed some discolouration on the bars. I don’t recall this being present about a year ago.

The first picture shows a carded bar, where the bar was inserted upside down, with a small discolouration mark near the 1g. The second pictures shows a different bar with a slight discolouration on the reverse. I have a few bars like this, all 1g bars, with discolouration and generally low quality. 

Ever see this before?

If these weren’t straight from such reputable supplier, I’d never of accepted in the first place.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Mcgrimes

[dicker]

Yes I have seen this before on coins (copper marks).

I have bought coins from Baird before with no issues.

Whilst I think it’s poor to present a “bar” upside down, it’s just bullion.

 

 

 

[LawrenceChard]

41 minutes ago, Mcgrimes said:

About 2.5 years ago, I bought a not insignificant number of golds bars from BairdMint. I wasn’t happy with the delivery, generally, as the certicards were low quality (easy to open, marked, stressed around corners turning white). In all cases, I kept them as they were reasonably priced compared to other dealers, and it was the height of covid.

Ive still got most of these bars of gold, and today I got my collection out for inspection/inventory and noticed some discolouration on the bars. I don’t recall this being present about a year ago.

The first picture shows a carded bar, where the bar was inserted upside down, with a small discolouration mark near the 1g. The second pictures shows a different bar with a slight discolouration on the reverse. I have a few bars like this, all 1g bars, with discolouration and generally low quality. 

Ever see this before?

If these weren’t straight from Bairds, I’d never of accepted in the first place.

This sounds more like a problem with expectation.

You paid a lot of money for them, so you expect them to be "perfect". If you were not happy with the certicard packaging, then it would have made sense to query this with Bairds ar the time. Some trade-off is understandable because you bought some of the cheapest 1 gram bars around, you say; although these is no guarantee that paying a higher premium would have got you better packaging.

You did not mention what percentage premium you paid. Do you know?

I also wonder why you bought many 1 gram bars when you would have got a lower premium on a smaller quantity of bigger bars.

I make the asumption that you bought them as an investment. It might be worth you reading this:

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/advice-guide-for-uk-bullion-investors/1041

Buying packaged bars also means you would have paid a higher premium than "naked" bars. If you wanted them as gift items, this might be worthwhile.

I don;t understand what you mean by "generally low quality."

There is no reason to doubt the quality / fineness of the gold. It is difficult to tell from your photos, but if they are marked 9999, then they will be 99.99% fine gold.

The discolouration is the well -known, perhaps infamous "red spot", and yes this can even affect 99999 or 99.999% fine gold.

Here is more reading:

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/red-spots-gold-coins/775

But that page was originally written with 900 or 916 gold in mind.

There are also many other websites, and YouTube videos discussing it, including at least 2 TSF topics:

and

Any of which may help.

It is easy to remove red spot on fine gold (99.9+%), just heat it to red heat, then let it cool. This works almost every time, although I have experienced very stubborn red spots on at least one occasion. Of course, it is better to remove them from the cards to do this.

If none of the above helps, then remember nothing is ever perfect, including life.

And... whatever we are going through is probably much better than most Ukranians are going through.

Bairds are a competitor of ours, but I have no reason to doubt them, which is more than I could say about some of our competitors.

😎

[GoldDiggerDave]

You would think 999 or 9999 gold would no have any copper present or in such tiny amounts it would not be a factor. 

I've seen 9999 gold "copper spot"  is it really copper or a similar or the same reaction as milking in silver thats caused by certain chemicals?  

Understandable in 22ct gold/copper alloy but in fine/pure gold.    

Edited October 26, 2022 by GoldDiggerDave

[dicker]

22 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

You would think 999 or 9999 gold would no have any copper present or in such tiny amounts it would not be a factor. 

I've seen 9999 gold "copper spot"  is it really copper or a similar or the same reaction as milking in silver thats caused by certain chemicals?  

Understandable in 22ct gold/copper alloy but in fine/pure gold.    

I have 999 US Coins that have copper spots.

Perth mint bars / coins - none

Particularly my observation is that I have no cast bars that have copper spots. 

[GoldDiggerDave]

2 minutes ago, dicker said:

I have 999 US Coins that have copper spots.

Perth mint bars / coins - none

Particularly my observation is that I have no cast bars that have copper spots. 

I see it all the time in fine gold just strange  when you think about it as it should be 999/1000 gold  the 1 part could be made up of lots of different metals potentially, I've seen horrific copper spot on proof gold brits the are 999 gold.  Are the copper spots actually copper? 

[Guest]

This rifle bore cleaner will remover copper spots from coins if you simply can’t live with them but it’s not cheap, On the other hand a bottle will probably last you a life time. 

[Mcgrimes]

2 hours ago, dicker said:

Yes I have seen this before on coins (copper marks).

I have bought coins from Baird before with no issues.

Whilst I think it’s poor to present a “bar” upside down, it’s just bullion.

 

 

 

Did some Googling and happy if this is just copper, I might follow the advice to heating to red hot, more out of interest than anything. 
Id say it’s sloppy packaging, but given its low price I do consider bullion and did so at the time.

The cards are low quality compared to others. I didn’t expect them carded

[SilverPlatinum]

I personally do not recommend cleaning the bars (or any coin).

We know those are copper spots because the purity is not 100%.

If you do not like them anymore then you can sell them and buy different gold coins/bars.

 

[Mcgrimes]

2 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

This sounds more like a problem with expectation.

You paid a lot of money for them, so you expect them to be "perfect". If you were not happy with the certicard packaging, then it would have made sense to query this with Bairds ar the time. Some trade-off is understandable because you bought some of the cheapest 1 gram bars around, you say; although these is no guarantee that paying a higher premium would have got you better packaging.

You did not mention what percentage premium you paid. Do you know?

I also wonder why you bought many 1 gram bars when you would have got a lower premium on a smaller quantity of bigger bars.

I make the asumption that you bought them as an investment. It might be worth you reading this:

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/advice-guide-for-uk-bullion-investors/1041

Buying packaged bars also means you would have paid a higher premium than "naked" bars. If you wanted them as gift items, this might be worthwhile.

I don;t understand what you mean by "generally low quality."

There is no reason to doubt the quality / fineness of the gold. It is difficult to tell from your photos, but if they are marked 9999, then they will be 99.99% fine gold.

The discolouration is the well -known, perhaps infamous "red spot", and yes this can even affect 99999 or 99.999% fine gold.

Here is more reading:

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/red-spots-gold-coins/775

But that page was originally written with 900 or 916 gold in mind.

There are also many other websites, and YouTube videos discussing it, including at least 2 TSF topics:

and

Any of which may help.

It is easy to remove red spot on fine gold (99.9+%), just heat it to red heat, then let it cool. This works almost every time, although I have experienced very stubborn red spots on at least one occasion. Of course, it is better to remove them from the cards to do this.

If none of the above helps, then remember nothing is ever perfect, including life.

And... whatever we are going through is probably much better than most Ukranians are going through.

Bairds are a competitor of ours, but I have no reason to doubt them, which is more than I could say about some of our competitors.

😎

I disagree with a lot of what you said. I didn’t elaborate on the delivery being to the wrong address, which I was displeased with. I didn’t expect them to be carded, I was happy for them to be loose. But the quality of the carding is poor. But surplus to requirements why I kept them.

I didn’t expect them to be ‘perfect’, but they’re not as good quality as the other Baird products I have purchased, I’ve never had this staining on any other product before. That’s the main concern here.

I don’t recall the premium, but I was happy with the price I paid. But the premium was higher than on the 2.5g, 5g, half ounce bars, which all display better quality 
I bought 1g bars because I wanted to. That’s the only reason. 
Low quality referring to the quality of the card, which isn’t as good as the other Baird products. The detail on the bars and subsequent  discolouration is, to me, of low quality.

 

appreciate the notes on the red spots. I’ve got a jewellers torch which will get it up to temperature, I’ll let you know how I get on!

Otherwise, been happy with previous purchases of 1g gold bars. As I say, I’ve never seen red spots before and my first thought was ‘fake’ - not that I’d suggest there were any nefarious motives. I’ll remove reference to the supplier as to not cause concern, generally

[Mcgrimes]

8 minutes ago, SilverPlatinum said:

I personally do not recommend cleaning the bars (or any coin).

We know those are copper spots because the purity is not 100%.

If you do not like them anymore then you can sell them and buy different gold coins/bars.

 

I was concerned of fakes or manufacturing errors! I’m going to heat one up as recommended and see what the results are

[LawrenceChard]

25 minutes ago, Mcgrimes said:

I disagree with a lot of what you said. I didn’t elaborate on the delivery being to the wrong address, which I was displeased with. I didn’t expect them to be carded, I was happy for them to be loose. But the quality of the carding is poor. But surplus to requirements why I kept them.

I didn’t expect them to be ‘perfect’, but they’re not as good quality as the other Baird products I have purchased, I’ve never had this staining on any other product before. That’s the main concern here.

I don’t recall the premium, but I was happy with the price I paid. But the premium was higher than on the 2.5g, 5g, half ounce bars, which all display better quality 
I bought 1g bars because I wanted to. That’s the only reason. 
Low quality referring to the quality of the card, which isn’t as good as the other Baird products. The detail on the bars and subsequent  discolouration is, to me, of low quality.

 

appreciate the notes on the red spots. I’ve got a jewellers torch which will get it up to temperature, I’ll let you know how I get on!

Otherwise, been happy with previous purchases of 1g gold bars. As I say, I’ve never seen red spots before and my first thought was ‘fake’ - not that I’d suggest there were any nefarious motives. I’ll remove reference to the supplier as to not cause concern, generally

There is no need to remove the reference to the supplier. It is good useful information for current and future readers.

No reasonable dealer would be offended at being mentioned, and your questions were even-handed, and a sensible approach to help you get more information, opinions, and answers. You never know, if they ever look at TSF, they might be inclined to post a response.

😎

[Ukbullionfan]

Omg that’s so bad I would be scared and worried , get your phone asap and ring 9…… erm 101.

[Mobius]

20 hours ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

You would think 999 or 9999 gold would no have any copper present or in such tiny amounts it would not be a factor. 

I've seen 9999 gold "copper spot"  is it really copper or a similar or the same reaction as milking in silver thats caused by certain chemicals?  

Understandable in 22ct gold/copper alloy but in fine/pure gold.    

According to this research, it's silver (in the form of silver sulfide) - not copper, either from the atmosphere at the mint, or the creation of the blanks.

http://projects.itn.pt/Corregidor/18.pdf

[GoldDiggerDave]

2 hours ago, Mobius said:

According to this research, it's silver (in the form of silver sulfide) - not copper, either from the atmosphere at the mint, or the creation of the blanks.

http://projects.itn.pt/Corregidor/18.pdf

In interesting read thanks, so many call it "copper spots" but it should be impossible for it to be copper in 999 or even 9999 gold, especially if the 001% or 0001% is made up of numerous elements, I doubt if copper is actually detectable in some cases. 

[dicker]

18 hours ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

In interesting read thanks, so many call it "copper spots" but it should be impossible for it to be copper in 999 or even 9999 gold, especially if the 001% or 0001% is made up of numerous elements, I doubt if copper is actually detectable in some cases. 

Thanks @GoldDiggerDave It’s a good point.  

[Mcgrimes]

Gents

Just to update, the brown spot was instantly removed with a flick of the flame from my butane jewellers torch. I’ve posted a picture of the same bar originally done so, but with said spot removed

Thanks for the advice

[Stuntman]

Nice work 😊