Serration Count on Gold Sovereigns - The Number of Grains on Milled Edges

[LawrenceChard]

I can't remember the first coin we decided to count the edge serrations on. It may have been a Krugerrand, or it could have been a sovereign.

I can remember getting complaints from the staff member I tasked it to. Despite him being someone with a University degree, albeit in history. I had to nanny him by working out ways to accomplish the task. The simplest method was to use a very fine tipped pen to mark the starting point, and then to mark every tenth ridge around the coin. There was a lot of grumbling, many recounts, and a few second opinions. Clearly there had to be a better method.

I asked our photographer (at the time) to take our usual macro photos, but place the coin on a reflective concave surface, so that the edge serrations were clearly visible. You would have thought I had asked him to undertake a moon landing! Again, this was someone with a (master's) degree in photography. I had to provide the ideas about what he could use, and then I had to find the actual objects to try out. Once we had taken the shots, I had to "invent" ways to mark out the serrations, and to clearly show the count. Eventually, we got the images I wanted.

As we have recently done a number of serration count images, and also denticle counts, I thought it worthwhile to create a new topic / thread, so here goes:

Edge serration count on a 2022 (bullion) sovereign. I should mention that there are 108 serrations, as shown.

More to follow, but all TSF members are welcome to contribute.

🙂

Edited March 13, 2022 by LawrenceChard
corrected proof to bullion

[h103efa]

What you needed @LawrenceChardis someone who does microscopy of cells and analysis of those images for a day job. Plenty of life science students around could build a simple workflow to take the image and count the ridges using software like ImageJ or Fiji.

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, h103efa said:

What you needed @LawrenceChardis someone who does microscopy of cells and analysis of those images for a day job. Plenty of life science students around could build a simple workflow to take the image and count the ridges using software like ImageJ or Fiji.

Probably.

Doug has created his own workflow, and does produce our images quite efficiently. It is always a pleasure to work with people who don't need micro-managing.

Don't mention Fiji, or he will probably expect us to send him there for a photoshoot.

😎

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

I can't remember the first coin we decided to count the edge serrations on. It may have been a Krugerrand, or it could have been a sovereign.

I can remember getting complaints from the staff member I tasked it to. Despite him being someone with a University degree, albeit in history. I had to nanny him by working out ways to accomplish the task. The simplest method was to use a very fine tipped pen to mark the starting point, and then to mark every tenth ridge around the coin. There was a lot of grumbling, many recounts, and a few second opinions. Clearly there had to be a better method.

I asked our photographer (at the time) to take our usual macro photos, but place the coin on a reflective concave surface, so that the edge serrations were clearly visible. You would have thought I had asked him to undertake a moon landing! Again, this was someone with a (master's) degree in photography. I had to provide the ideas about what he could use, and then I had to find the actual objects to try out. Once we had taken the shots, I had to "invent" ways to mark out the serrations, and to clearly show the count. Eventually, we got the images I wanted.

As we have recently done a number of serration count images, and also denticle counts, I thought it worthwhile to create a new topic / thread, so here goes:

Edge serration count on a 2022 (bullion) sovereign.

More to follow, but all TSF members are welcome to contribute.

🙂

Denticle count on a 2022 bullion sovereign:

220 of them.

[sovereignsteve]

Sounds like there is a research thesis here. Compiling a calalogue of all known sovereigns and comparing fakes against this database.

[LawrenceChard]

16 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

Sounds like there is a research thesis here. Compiling a calalogue of all known sovereigns and comparing fakes against this database.

Sounds like a great idea.

Send me all known sovereigns, and I will be happy to check them.

😎

[sovereignsteve]

19 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

Send me all known sovereigns, and I will be happy to check them.

I thought you had them all

[LawrenceChard]

Just now, sovereignsteve said:

I thought you had them all

Not even enough to fill the swimming pool!

😎

[modofantasma]

The Greeks made it a little easier🤔

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/pars_coins/121/product/seleukid_kings_demetrios_i_soter_162150_bc_serrated__24mm/1178356/Default.aspx

In a serious note though, really interesting reading this and the other thread. Thanks for sharing 

[Arganto]

This says a lot about the state of the modern education system, but thankfully experience trumps certification so provided they stick around at Chards I feel they're in good hands.

I like this detailing of coins in minute detail. If not a research thesis maybe a book? 😜

 

[SemolinaPilchard]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

Don't mention Fiji, or he will probably expect us to send him there for a photoshoot.

😎

How about a temporary secondment to Fiji mint?  My preference would be Tristan da Cunha, though. 

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, modofantasma said:

The Greeks made it a little easier🤔

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/pars_coins/121/product/seleukid_kings_demetrios_i_soter_162150_bc_serrated__24mm/1178356/Default.aspx

In a serious note though, really interesting reading this and the other thread. Thanks for sharing 

It could be because they had not developed photography, although they did use digital technology.

Thanks for your comments.

[dicker]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

Probably.

Doug has created his own workflow, and does produce our images quite efficiently. It is always a pleasure to work with people who don't need micro-managing.

Don't mention Fiji, or he will probably expect us to send him there for a photoshoot.

😎

Fiji is in my opinion a bit so so.  Cook islands are far superior!

Edited March 13, 2022 by dicker

[LawrenceChard]

14 minutes ago, Liam84 said:

This says a lot about the state of the modern education system, but thankfully experience trumps certification so provided they stick around at Chards I feel they're in good hands.

I like this detailing of coins in minute detail. If not a research thesis maybe a book? 😜

 

It's time I did, I must have written enough to fill about 20 books, so it might be a case of collating it in some kind of sensible order, and linking it all up.

[LawrenceChard]

8 minutes ago, SemolinaPilchard said:

How about a temporary secondment to Fiji mint?  My preference would be Tristan da Cunha, though. 

Despite the profusion of TDC coins, the only mint they have there is growing in the herb garden.

🙂

[LawrenceChard]

3 minutes ago, dicker said:

Fiji is in my opinion a bit so so.  Cook islands are far superior!

I could be tempted by the British Virgin Islands.

😎

[dicker]

@LawrenceChard  I have found that education doesn’t always correlate with being able to think for yourself or having common sense.  

Tough academic teaching (not just wrote learning) helps with being able to think for yourself - but this is unfashionable as it’s tough.

Equally, hard Outwardbound challenges where there is no one to rescue you makes you resilient and think for yourself.

Currently far too few schools offer this sort of education upto 18, and Universities offer junk courses which will never be used by anyone.

Legacy of Blair.  

[dicker]

Penrhyn Atoll (Cook Islands).  If you were to visit you would be one of perhaps 4 other people there.   No shops, just black pearl farmers who are all very nice.  

Nothing to do but look at nature.  There was a scandal 3 years ago because the first bit of plastic (ever) was found on on one of the beaches.  
 

[LawrenceChard]

6 minutes ago, dicker said:

@LawrenceChard  I have found that education doesn’t always correlate with being able to think for yourself or having common sense.  

Tough academic teaching (not just wrote learning) helps with being able to think for yourself - but this is unfashionable as it’s tough.

Equally, hard Outwardbound challenges where there is no one to rescue you makes you resilient and think for yourself.

Currently far too few schools offer this sort of education upto 18, and Universities offer junk courses which will never be used by anyone.

Legacy of Blair.  

Agreed. Even people with Ph.D.s don't always appear to be particularly intelligent.

It might make a difference if you wrote what you learnt instead of learnt what you rote. 🙂

Do Chinese universities offer junk shipbuilding courses?

[LawrenceChard]

11 minutes ago, dicker said:

Penrhyn Atoll (Cook Islands).  If you were to visit you would be one of perhaps 4 other people there.   No shops, just black pearl farmers who are all very nice.  

 

Would I have to learn Welsh? 😎

[dicker]

Just now, LawrenceChard said:

Agreed. Even people with Ph.D.s don't always appear to be particularly intelligent.

It might make a difference if you wrote what you learnt instead of learnt what you rote. 🙂

Do Chinese universities offer junk shipbuilding courses?

My experience is that people who have obtained qualifications while working (E.g accountants) are far more effective than those who obtained degrees, then masters then Doctorates before going into a work environment. Engineering, physics and maths are a notable exception to this.

 

 

1 minute ago, LawrenceChard said:

Would I have to learn Welsh? 😎

Thankfully no!

[Stuntman]

Completely agree with all the real-world work/life skills sentiments above.  Rigorous academic foundations, taking professional and other qualifications whilst working, doing hard outward bound-type stuff where you are really out in the open (not the sanitised stuff that many do) builds a lot of capabilities.  Add in a pinch of natural curiosity and a desire to continuously improve* things, and then season with an inspirational manager or mentor for best effect.

Anyway, now that I've got that off my chest... nice serrations and nice denticles.  I wonder if there will be variations to these numbers for coins struck from different dies (as would sometimes be the case with predecimal coins), or perhaps that has 'died out' these days with better methods of design replicability.

 

* purists and/or pedants will note the split infinitive...

[LawrenceChard]

3 hours ago, Stuntman said:

... a desire to continuously improve* things

* purists and/or pedants will note the split infinitive...

The syntax there is perfectly clear, and is a nice clear and efficient way to say it.

I hadn't noticed the split infinitive, and had to look when you mentioned it.

It isn't a crime to occasionally split an infinitive.

🙂

[h103efa]

3 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Agreed. Even people with Ph.D.s don't always appear to be particularly intelligent.

It might make a difference if you wrote what you learnt instead of learnt what you rote. 🙂

Do Chinese universities offer junk shipbuilding courses?

I'd like to stick up for some with PhDs that may have some intelligence but also common sense!

[h103efa]

3 hours ago, dicker said:

My experience is that people who have obtained qualifications while working (E.g accountants) are far more effective than those who obtained degrees, then masters then Doctorates before going into a work environment. Engineering, physics and maths are a notable exception to this

Something in this i guess. I completed my PhD while working full time with a small biotech company in Cambridge - tough 4.5 years!