Ethically sourced gold - opinions

[stefffana]

Hi, everyone!

I have watched the last video uploaded on YouTube by @BackyardBullion ( "A Dealer Makes A Big Error Selling Gold Below Spot Price " ) and I have realised that all of us we are very happy when we can find in our hunts a  cheap/bargain/undervalued deal.

But now I have a big dilemma: It is ethically sourced gold (or silver) our bargain?

All of us know very well that from ancient times gold was associated with tears, sweat, blood, slavery, deaths, wars and all the worst plagues of humanity. Even in our days tons of gold are coming from third world countries, with very unethical methods of mining: modern slavery, children exploitation, crimes, inhuman work conditions, disrespect for laws and nature. 

Speculating an error on a dealer's site it is not unethical? That error was made by an employee who will pay for what he/she did. I can imagine what happened when the error was discovered and the employee must pay his/her mistake from salary or with his/her job. There are not tears involved in this case?

I am sure that if by mistake I will put on sale on forum some coins under melting value, these coins will fly in a minute, before someone to make me aware about my mistake.

Let's see this scenario:

Navigating on Chards site, I have discovered an error in pricing some coins with a total difference of £2000 comparing with melting value. What should I do?

A. Buy all these coins, sell them at spot on forum and my pure profit is £2000. Result: I can't sleep well one month.

B. Contact the dealer, explain him the error, the problem was fixed, my pure profit is £0. Result: Mr. Chards have a good laugh, I can't sleep well one year.

C. Buy all these coins, sell at spot on forum and my pure profit is £2000. Contact the dealer after, or better put a video on YouTube about what I've did. Result: I have a good laugh, but I still can't sleep well one month, Mr. Chards can't sleep well one month.

D. Contact the dealer, ask for a 25%-30% reward for making him aware. My profit is £500-£600. Dealer's "profit" is £1400-£1500 (meaning he didn't lose). Result: I can sleep well with a good laugh, Mr. Chards can't sleep one night for losing only £500-£600, but next day he will smile again.

I'd like to hear your opinions about my dillema and an answer for this scenario. If possible, I'd like to see from dealer's perspective also. Maybe @BleyerBullion and @LawrenceChard can have an input.

Kindest regards,

Stefan.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by stefffana

[Gordy]

well..... you wouldnt get a reward my friend, my personal opinion if it was in fact Chards I would question it as he is an active member on here and I wouldn't do that to someone I dont know (but have interacted with, qiute happily)

if it was a company I had never dealt with and had no interaction with i would almost certainly buy as much as i could and alert members on here and sell it on for as much as i could and pat myself on the back for a good deal...

Now ask yourself this....

If a person with no knowledge walked into a dealers' premises with a coin worth £4,000 and without asking for valuation say to the dealer.. "Will you give me £2000.00 for this"

Would the dealr turn around and say "excuse me my good fellow, that sweet little piece of numismatic treasure is worth £4,000, so I will cross your palm with not £2k but indeed i will present you with £4k and a current bun for your now widening appetite" 

[stefffana]

6 minutes ago, Gordy said:

well..... you wouldnt get a reward my friend, my personal opinion if it was in fact Chards I would question it as he is an active member on here and I wouldn't do that to someone I dont know (but have interacted with, qiute happily)

if it was a company I had never dealt with and had no interaction with i would almost certainly buy as much as i could and alert members on here and sell it on for as much as i could and pat myself on the back for a good deal...

Now ask yourself this....

If a person with no knowledge walked into a dealers' premises with a coin worth £4,000 and without asking for valuation say to the dealer.. "Will you give me £2000.00 for this"

Would the dealr turn around and say "excuse me my good fellow, that sweet little piece of numismatic treasure is worth £4,000, so I will cross your palm with not £2k but indeed i will present you with £4k and a current bun for your now widening appetite" 

Thank you for your opinion. I have run out of reactions, I will add my emoticon tomorrow.😊

[modofantasma]

Not quite the question you're asking but on topic in terms of ethically sourced gold there is 'Green' gold by Valcambi. The bars come in their green assay card rather than the orange. 

[James32]

Didn't this scenario just happen recently with @BleyerBullion? And the 2022 sovereign ( not thousands of pounds mind) but a couple of hundred at least ( without knowing how many where purchased) 

bleyer stood over the error which was very commendable, but if I thought for one second the difference came out of an employee's wage packet...then they can have mine back with a smile.

Great question and very thought provoking, would I do a dealer out of a few thousand? Categorically no ( luck doesn't follow such actions)

Would I buy a coin from a ( dealer )with a £10-£20 discrepancy? Yes, every day of the week and twice on Sunday's 🙂 as I can guarantee they have made multiple thousands from me over the years.

I've pointed out by private mail a few times to sellers on here that their item was undervalued.

What goes around comes around ( I hope lol )

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by James32

[Shep]

I feel the Bleyer Bullion situation is somewhat of a false example.

Correct me if I’m wrong but BYBs video is referring to the question of whether the mining/transport/minting of the gold we buy can be deemed ethical, or whether people are being exploited along the chain in getting our gold to us. If we can’t guarantee this with things like bananas (the fair trade programme has on many occasions been exposed for still using farms that employ child labour) I’m not sure how this could ever be guaranteed with gold. That’s not to say companies shouldn’t try.

Regarding the Bleyer situation they had it covered within their terms and conditions to have the ability to cancel orders made against pricing errors on their website. Instead they honoured the deal and turned it into a PR win.

I bought some and I didn’t lose sleep - if they had cancelled I wouldn’t lose sleep either, I would just go look for the next opportunity to buy. I buy to give my family security for the future. No company is going to actively protect my interests and would probably gladly scalp me if I walked in desperate to sell with a pile of proof coins by offering me melt value for them.

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Shep

[James32]

2 minutes ago, Shep said:

I feel the Bleyer Bullion situation is somewhat of a false example.

Correct me if I’m wrong but BYBs video is referring to the question of whether the mining/transport/minting of the gold we buy can be deemed ethical, or whether people are being exploited along the chain in getting our gold to us. If we can’t guarantee this with things like bananas (the fair trade programme has on many occasions been exposed for still using farms that employ child labour) I’m not sure how this could ever be guaranteed with gold. That’s not to say companies shouldn’t try.

Regarding the Bleyer situation they had it covered within their terms and conditions to have the ability to cancel orders made against pricing errors on their website. Instead they honoured the deal and turned it into a PR win. 

 

I never seen the video but responded to @stefffana question 😊

[Shep]

2 minutes ago, James32 said:

I never seen the video but responded to @stefffana question 😊

No agreed, I thought that is what @stefffanawas also referring to so I was replying directly to the OP. 

[stefffana]

Just now, Shep said:

No agreed, I thought that is what @stefffanawas also referring to so I was replying directly to the OP. 

Indeed, this dillema is an extended one. Thank you for answer.😊

[paulmerton]

3 hours ago, stefffana said:

A. Buy all these coins, sell them at spot on forum and my pure profit is £2000. Result: I can't sleep well one month.

B. Contact the dealer, explain him the error, the problem was fixed, my pure profit is £0. Result: Mr. Chards have a good laugh, I can't sleep well one year.

C. Buy all these coins, sell at spot on forum and my pure profit is £2000. Contact the dealer after, or better put a video on YouTube about what I've did. Result: I have a good laugh, but I still can't sleep well one month, Mr. Chards can't sleep well one month.

D. Contact the dealer, ask for a 25%-30% reward for making him aware. My profit is £500-£600. Dealer's "profit" is £1400-£1500 (meaning he didn't lose). Result: I can sleep well with a good laugh, Mr. Chards can't sleep one night for losing only £500-£600, but next day he will smile again.

E. Post the deal on the forum  

[stefffana]

3 minutes ago, paulmerton said:

E. Post the deal on the forum  

Thank you for your answer. Your variant is more like a gang bang in my opinion. For sure the dealer will be penetrated harder and my sleep will be affected  longer.😊 

[Roy]

The answer is B of course:

3 hours ago, stefffana said:

B. Contact the dealer, explain him the error, the problem was fixed, my pure profit is £0. Result: Mr. Chards have a good laugh, I can't sleep well one year.

 

but I would hope for a little bit of D too!

3 hours ago, stefffana said:

D. Contact the dealer, ask for a 25%-30% reward for making him aware. My profit is £500-£600. Dealer's "profit" is £1400-£1500 (meaning he didn't lose). Result: I can sleep well with a good laugh, Mr. Chards can't sleep one night for losing only £500-£600, but next day he will smile again.

i.e. the dealer (whether Chards or anyone, inc. private sellers) would thank me and offer a discount or gift for my honesty.

 

[paulmerton]

1 minute ago, stefffana said:

Thank you for your answer. Your variant is more like a gang bang in my opinion. For sure the dealer will be penetrated harder and my sleep will be affected  longer.😊 

Well that was some unexpected imagery!

If whatever items you're referring to are actually in stock, and in sufficient quantities for the entire forum to order many, then I would expect any dealer to simply cancel the orders if they have been excessively underpriced in error. They'd be perfectly entitled to do so, and the rapid flood of orders for the same item would likely make them aware of the mistake before any can be dispatched.

If it's obviously a mistake, I don't think any customer would begrudge them, as the customer would be fully aware that it's a mistake they're trying to take advantage of.

If it's only slightly underpriced, and the dealer can afford to do so, then an alternative outcome is to fulfil the orders anyway, as we saw earlier this year. It's a good way to win customers for not a lot of money.

[stefffana]

2 minutes ago, Roy said:

The answer is B of course:

but I would hope for a little bit of D too!

i.e. the dealer (whether Chards or anyone, inc. private sellers) would thank me and offer a discount or gift for my honesty.

 

Thank you. A hard decision.😊

[James32]

Ohhh silly me...I thought this was all hypothetical 😅 any pms will be answered later, I'm busy for the next few days 😁

[stefffana]

2 minutes ago, paulmerton said:

Well that was some unexpected imagery!

If whatever items you're referring to are actually in stock, and in sufficient quantities for the entire forum to order many, then I would expect any dealer to simply cancel the orders if they have been excessively underpriced in error. They'd be perfectly entitled to do so, and the rapid flood of orders for the same item would likely make them aware of the mistake before any can be dispatched.

If it's obviously a mistake, I don't think any customer would begrudge them, as the customer would be fully aware that it's a mistake they're trying to take advantage of.

If it's only slightly underpriced, and the dealer can afford to do so, then an alternative outcome is to fulfil the orders anyway, as we saw earlier this year. It's a good way to win customers for not a lot of money.

Thank you for answer. My scenario was for only a maximum £2000 lose, small stock, obvious underpriced. 

3 minutes ago, James32 said:

Ohhh silly me...I thought this was all hypothetical 😅 any pms will be answered later, I'm busy for the next few days 😁

I have not reactions again.😁😀

[paulmerton]

6 minutes ago, stefffana said:

Thank you for answer. My scenario was for only a maximum £2000 lose, small stock, obvious underpriced. 

So your hypothetical risk of a gang bang was purely wishful thinking!  

[stefffana]

Just now, paulmerton said:

So your hypothetical risk of a gang bang was purely wishful thinking!  

👍 Yes!🤗

[paulmerton]

Whatever it is, take a screenshot to show us later on when it's fixed  

[LawrenceChard]

4 hours ago, stefffana said:

Hi, everyone!

I have watched the last video uploaded on YouTube by @BackyardBullion ( "A Dealer Makes A Big Error Selling Gold Below Spot Price " ) and I have realised that all of us we are very happy when we can find in our hunts a  cheap/bargain/undervalued deal.

But now I have a big dilemma: It is ethically sourced gold (or silver) our bargain?

All of us know very well that from ancient times gold was associated with tears, sweat, blood, slavery, deaths, wars and all the worst plagues of humanity. Even in our days tons of gold are coming from third world countries, with very unethical methods of mining: modern slavery, children exploitation, crimes, inhuman work conditions, disrespect for laws and nature. 

Speculating an error on a dealer's site it is not unethical? That error was made by an employee who will pay for what he/she did. I can imagine what happened when the error was discovered and the employee must pay his/her mistake from salary or with his/her job. There are not tears involved in this case?

I am sure that if by mistake I will put on sale on forum some coins under melting value, these coins will fly in a minute, before someone to make me aware about my mistake.

Let's see this scenario:

Navigating on Chards site, I have discovered an error in pricing some coins with a total difference of £2000 comparing with melting value. What should I do?

A. Buy all these coins, sell them at spot on forum and my pure profit is £2000. Result: I can't sleep well one month.

B. Contact the dealer, explain him the error, the problem was fixed, my pure profit is £0. Result: Mr. Chards have a good laugh, I can't sleep well one year.

C. Buy all these coins, sell at spot on forum and my pure profit is £2000. Contact the dealer after, or better put a video on YouTube about what I've did. Result: I have a good laugh, but I still can't sleep well one month, Mr. Chards can't sleep well one month.

D. Contact the dealer, ask for a 25%-30% reward for making him aware. My profit is £500-£600. Dealer's "profit" is £1400-£1500 (meaning he didn't lose). Result: I can sleep well with a good laugh, Mr. Chards can't sleep one night for losing only £500-£600, but next day he will smile again.

I'd like to hear your opinions about my dillema and an answer for this scenario. If possible, I'd like to see from dealer's perspective also. Maybe @BleyerBullion and @LawrenceChard can have an input.

Kindest regards,

Stefan.

 

 

This is an interesting question, and I like the list of alternatives.

I have always tried to run our business on fair, honest and ethical lines. We would never knowingly mislead a customer, whether a buyer or seller. My expectation is that most people would appreciate this approach, and reciprocate where appropriate. Most of the time, this works. Only a very small proportion of our customers ever try to take unfair advantage. On the small number of occasions where someone does try to take unfair advantage of something, I make a mental note, because I have learnt something about that person. If on the other hand, someone goes out of their way to help us with something, again I would want to make a mental note. I regard business as two way.

Legally, if one party to a contract is aware the other party is mistaken about a key part ot the contract, then it is not enforceable. A simplied example might be that if someone agreed to buy 1,000 gold sovereigns from us thinking they were one ounce gold coins, then we would be aware, of should be aware, of their misunderstanding. Good practice would be to alert the buyer to the facts.

Because we are aware that human error can cause great problems if data is incorrectly input into automated systems, we do have some price checking routines, and page 5398 of out T&Cs does include a disclaimer. 🙂

If all parties act ethically, then nobody should lose any sleep, so everyone benefits.

@stefffana's question seems to demonstrate that he is one of the ethical good guys, and I liked @Gordy's answer too.

Most members on TSF do seem to be decent people, despite the wide variety of different opinions on many topics. I wish could say the same for Facebook and other social media platforms. Some credit is undoubtedly due here to TSF Moderators.

The question reminds me of a funny story I was told years ago.

A partner in a menswear shop was just about to close when a gent dashed in and wanted to buy a £20 silk tie. In his rush, he handed over two £20 notes by mistake, which the seller noticed just as the buyer was going out of the door.

This posed an ethical problem for the seller. Should he tell his partner or not?

On the question of child labour, I think many critics are too dogmatic and extreme. Sure, the Victorian English practice of sending small children up chimneys was unsound, but I used to accompany one or both of my parents to work from an early age, possibly as young as about 5 years old. I learnt much about work, life, and more from this early experience, and would recommend early work experience wherever and whenever practical and safe.

 

[chrisdobb]

Suggest you buy some sleeping tablets, you will be asking for organic gold next!

Who can say for where or how the gold we are buying was sourced?

[modofantasma]

5 hours ago, stefffana said:

B. Contact the dealer, explain him the error, the problem was fixed, my pure profit is £0. Result: Mr. Chards have a good laugh, I can't sleep well one year.

How do you know what's an error? Or publicity stunt?

If it is an issue then the dealer has the power to cancel your order in reality... The golden rule... He who holds the gold makes the rules 

Another spin on the ethics... Would you feel bad for the bank if you are spending on your credit card, thousands of pounds every month, but paying it off and carrying zero balance therefore paying £0 interest? 

🤔😂

[SovereignBishop]

6 hours ago, stefffana said:

Hi, everyone!

I have watched the last video uploaded on YouTube by @BackyardBullion ( "A Dealer Makes A Big Error Selling Gold Below Spot Price " ) and I have realised that all of us we are very happy when we can find in our hunts a  cheap/bargain/undervalued deal.

But now I have a big dilemma: It is ethically sourced gold (or silver) our bargain?

All of us know very well that from ancient times gold was associated with tears, sweat, blood, slavery, deaths, wars and all the worst plagues of humanity. Even in our days tons of gold are coming from third world countries, with very unethical methods of mining: modern slavery, children exploitation, crimes, inhuman work conditions, disrespect for laws and nature. 

Speculating an error on a dealer's site it is not unethical? That error was made by an employee who will pay for what he/she did. I can imagine what happened when the error was discovered and the employee must pay his/her mistake from salary or with his/her job. There are not tears involved in this case?

I am sure that if by mistake I will put on sale on forum some coins under melting value, these coins will fly in a minute, before someone to make me aware about my mistake.

Let's see this scenario:

Navigating on Chards site, I have discovered an error in pricing some coins with a total difference of £2000 comparing with melting value. What should I do?

A. Buy all these coins, sell them at spot on forum and my pure profit is £2000. Result: I can't sleep well one month.

B. Contact the dealer, explain him the error, the problem was fixed, my pure profit is £0. Result: Mr. Chards have a good laugh, I can't sleep well one year.

C. Buy all these coins, sell at spot on forum and my pure profit is £2000. Contact the dealer after, or better put a video on YouTube about what I've did. Result: I have a good laugh, but I still can't sleep well one month, Mr. Chards can't sleep well one month.

D. Contact the dealer, ask for a 25%-30% reward for making him aware. My profit is £500-£600. Dealer's "profit" is £1400-£1500 (meaning he didn't lose). Result: I can sleep well with a good laugh, Mr. Chards can't sleep one night for losing only £500-£600, but next day he will smile again.

I'd like to hear your opinions about my dillema and an answer for this scenario. If possible, I'd like to see from dealer's perspective also. Maybe @BleyerBullion and @LawrenceChard can have an input.

Kindest regards,

Stefan.

 

 

I would not give to ficks and buy as much as I could afford and sleep well that night knowing the millionaire owners mistake earned me a few quid.

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by SovereignBishop

[paulmerton]

11 minutes ago, modofantasma said:

Would you feel bad for the bank if you are spending on your credit card, thousands of pounds every month, but paying it off and carrying zero balance therefore paying £0 interest? 

I think that's moot as the card company would make money from the retailer for every transaction.

[stefffana]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

This is an interesting question, and I like the list of alternatives.

I have always tried to run our business on fair, honest and ethical lines. We would never knowingly mislead a customer, whether a buyer or seller. My expectation is that most people would appreciate this approach, and reciprocate where appropriate. Most of the time, this works. Only a very small proportion of our customers ever try to take unfair advantage. On the small number of occasions where someone does try to take unfair advantage of something, I make a mental note, because I have learnt something about that person. If on the other hand, someone goes out of their way to help us with something, again I would want to make a mental note. I regard business as two way.

Legally, if one party to a contract is aware the other party is mistaken about a key part ot the contract, then it is not enforceable. A simplied example might be that if someone agreed to buy 1,000 gold sovereigns from us thinking they were one ounce gold coins, then we would be aware, of should be aware, of their misunderstanding. Good practice would be to alert the buyer to the facts.

Because we are aware that human error can cause great problems if data is incorrectly input into automated systems, we do have some price checking routines, and page 5398 of out T&Cs does include a disclaimer. 🙂

If all parties act ethically, then nobody should lose any sleep, so everyone benefits.

@stefffana's question seems to demonstrate that he is one of the ethical good guys, and I liked @Gordy's answer too.

Most members on TSF do seem to be decent people, despite the wide variety of different opinions on many topics. I wish could say the same for Facebook and other social media platforms. Some credit is undoubtedly due here to TSF Moderators.

The question reminds me of a funny story I was told years ago.

A partner in a menswear shop was just about to close when a gent dashed in and wanted to buy a £20 silk tie. In his rush, he handed over two £20 notes by mistake, which the seller noticed just as the buyer was going out of the door.

This posed an ethical problem for the seller. Should he tell his partner or not?

On the question of child labour, I think many critics are too dogmatic and extreme. Sure, the Victorian English practice of sending small children up chimneys was unsound, but I used to accompany one or both of my parents to work from an early age, possibly as young as about 5 years old. I learnt much about work, life, and more from this early experience, and would recommend early work experience wherever and whenever practical and safe.

 

Thank you for your answer, @LawrenceChard.

About having your children involved in small working activities, in accordance with their power, age and interest, I totally agree. It is very important in their education and future evolution. I was talking about gold and other resources mined in Africa, Asia and in some countries from South America, where modern slavery is very obvious.

About spotting mistakes on your site now.😊

Yes, I found two products underpriced, with a total price of £9313 according with the number of coins in stock, but with a melting value of £11063, so a pure profit for buyer of £1749. With your permission, I will PM you soon for details.

Of course, after you will fix the problem, it is up to you to reveal on this topic what and how this error happened, I will not do it.

I have started this topic only to see another opinions, not to decide myself easier what to do. 

Kindest regards,

Stefan.