Morgan Silver dollar Genuine?

[Mattaphysics]

So, I've gotten this Morgan it's dimensions seem ok but I'm still second guessing. Anyone with experience in this area? I'm not good with the ring test... It has a ring but I'm not sure if it is or not.

[dicker]

Slightly tricky without a full pic of both sides but I think its probably genuine but has hard a hard life.

 

All the best

Dicker

[Seasider]

Have you tried it with a magnet?

[Junior]

Try this post I did a little over a month ago. It includes some tests that you might know of or even performed on your own coin.

And here is a short video I did of the "Ping" test

The fake coin was first. The real coin was second.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Junior

[matt1r]

Is the weight right?

[Mattaphysics]

Many thanks @Junior that was what I needed... It's fake. That stinks but lessons are wonderful... If only it didn't cost so much.

[Junior]

@Mattaphysics As I state in my post on the various tests, a coin may pass several tests, but it only takes one to prove a fake.

What did you find with your coin?

[Centauri167]

I hope it was not the magnetic test ... but I am also wondering how you find it out ?

[Arganto]

If that's a fake I'd wager it's an old one. Are you positive OP? 

[dicker]

On 14/01/2022 at 01:04, Mattaphysics said:

Many thanks @Junior that was what I needed... It's fake. That stinks but lessons are wonderful... If only it didn't cost so much.

Interesting - it doesn’t look like it was cast from the photos.

I’m working my way backwards in decades to find sources on counterfeits.   What is apparent is that Morgan’s we’re being counterfeited from at least the 1960’s. 
 

Best

Dicker

[Junior]

7 hours ago, dicker said:

Interesting - it doesn’t look like it was cast from the photos.

I’m working my way backwards in decades to find sources on counterfeits.   What is apparent is that Morgan’s we’re being counterfeited from at least the 1960’s. 
 

Best

Dicker

I agree with Dicker. It doesn’t look to be counterfeit. I merely recommended my previous post so you may try the tests on your coin. It could still be a fake don’t get me wrong, but try the different tests and see what you get.

I’m a fan of weight in combination with dimensions. I’ve found that fakes with the correct dimensions are mostly underweight on account of a cheaper, less dense material than silver. And fakes with the correct weight are normally grossly over one of the dimensions, typically the thickness.

[dicker]

Just for interest.

Best

Dicker

 

[Junior]

On 19/01/2022 at 04:29, dicker said:

Just for interest.

Best

Dicker

 

This article references the many Morgans that were cast, primarily New Orleans Morgans on account of these coins being struck softer than the San Francisco mint Morgans (the softer strike allowed the cast counterfeits to blend into circulation easier). The popular years for cast counterfeits from New Orleans mint are 1893, 1894, 1896, 1900, 1901, & 1902.

Also a good source for info...

www.moonlightmint.com/VAM_privately_made/00.htm 

[dicker]

@Junior Many thanks!

[Mattaphysics]

I thank all of you for everything. Interesting to see that the certain New Orleans mint dates that are easily counterfeited because of softer strikes. Idk... The weight is around 24.XXg on it. I have around 8 of them and all have proper dimensions except weight. Same too with 3 Peace Dollars I got. But I knew they were counterfeit the minute I had a 1921 dollar. Which of course would be ridiculous at 3 for like $60-$70. I am so disappointed, these were supposed to be my first of both peace and morgans. The prices were just right to make you think it was genuine and cheap enough to call you to them.

[Junior]

Yeah, I know for sure if the weights were hovering around 24 grams give or take, with significant details still remaining, then they are fakes.

Referring back to my chart from my post on counterfeits, my most worn Morgan was an 1887-O and even that coin, almost smooth, still weighed 24.8 grams. So any coin with a significant amount of detail remaining should really fall between 25-26 grams. Closer to 26 grams for a Morgan with AU details and nearing 25 grams for Good details. Almost good and a rating of poor would be just under 25 grams as I have found through tests.

[Junior]

1 hour ago, Mattaphysics said:

I am so disappointed, these were supposed to be my first of both peace and morgans.

Be upset, feelings are natural, but take away from the experience. Keep those counterfeits for two reasons; one because they will remind you that people will try to trick you and two because they are worth studying so you know what to look for.

My first counterfeit was an 1893-CC. Same story as yours really. The right price to seem like too good a deal, but also the right price to not let it pass by in case it was genuine. Sort of a sweet spot and counterfeiters know where that sweet spot is for most rare coins. Anyway, as soon as I held it, I recognized the weight by feel as being underweight. I still have that coin for the very reasons I listed above.

[Mattaphysics]

@JuniorOh that's a bit of a hit too. An 1893 CC musta set you back more than I'm comfortable with. My problem is though I need real ones now. I was thinking of getting culls from one of the reputable dealers online. Apmex or hero or sd or jm.

One thing I did want to ask. Is the strike on these and details better than most to make it seem fake? Because I was looking for some kind of fault but couldn't in these fakes. All except the weight is what was off. The strike and details are still correct? Or at least enough to fool only those who haven't studied these for years?

[Junior]

7 hours ago, Mattaphysics said:

One thing I did want to ask. Is the strike on these and details better than most to make it seem fake? Because I was looking for some kind of fault but couldn't in these fakes. All except the weight is what was off. The strike and details are still correct? Or at least enough to fool only those who haven't studied these for years?

 

From my experience with studying Morgans, you really need to see similar years and mint marks side by side with what you are intending to buy to notice deficiencies or attributes.

In regards to your fakes, if there is no obvious spatter from production, no design flaws or errors that shouldn’t exist, then sometimes you just need to look at the “age” of the coin. By age, I’m actually referring to the look and not the year itself. Many coins that are made to look old show obvious directional streaking from when someone removed the tarnishing compound or similar substance. The wipe marks are usually streaking all in the same direction.

For example, the pictures you posted show streaking perpendicular to the words “ONE DOLLAR” and “In God We Trust”. Sort of reminds me of cleaning my car windows and wiping downward in one consistent motion. Looks similar on your coin.
 

When you age a coin, you still want the coin to show eye appeal to get someone willing to buy it. So the tarnish compound or whatever is used is applied and then the majority of it is wiped away after some time. Often times wiped just once so not too much is removed and this single wipe is in one direction and therefore should raise suspicion.

[DarkChameleon]

You'd thinkthe Chinese would have figured out the best way to make a fake is to use a real coin, melt it down then make the fake with a real coin, as in melt a minimum value morgan into a high value mo4gan so it would pass 90% of the fake tests, true weight, true composition, true magnetics, true size.

[Centauri167]

11 hours ago, DarkChameleon said:

You'd thinkthe Chinese would have figured out the best way to make a fake is to use a real coin, melt it down then make the fake with a real coin, as in melt a minimum value morgan into a high value mo4gan so it would pass 90% of the fake tests, true weight, true composition, true magnetics, true size.

Now they know it ... 🙃

[DarkChameleon]

7 hours ago, Centauri167 said:

Now they know it ... 🙃

They are too greedy to do that apparently...then copy chibies with 5% silver and yet if they used.999 they'd still double their money but that's not enough...like the cons of old...why invest to ma,e money even illegally.

[Mattaphysics]

So I've taken one to a file for a bit and it's the same metal through and through. Usually is just a silver cousin by but this is all the same metal it seems. It may be brass... Maybe nickel coated brass? It has what looks like a goldfish looking tint on the file. Not sure how well the pics pick it up.

[dicker]

I could file the edge of one of my Carson City Morgan’s, but think I will leave that for another day 😉

[sovereignsteve]

2 hours ago, Mattaphysics said:

but this is all the same metal it seems. It may be brass... Maybe nickel coated brass?

I'm sure you would easily see the gold colour if it were plated brass.