Pre 1947 fake or not?

[spoon]

Hi, as a noob  I want to get the opinion of other forum members. In the linked video this guy is saying that in his opinion he is coming accross lots of fake pre 1947 coins. I have also seen a  youtube comment from an  apparent jewellery shop owner who is also saying that he  has seen large batches of fake plated pre 1947 coins.

On this forum I have seen comments saying that because the silver content is only .500 then it would not be worth the effort to fake them......who is correct? I really want to collect largr amounts of pre 1947 but I must admit I am worried about fakes....should I be? 

Will the normal magnet,  weight and dimension checks be enough to spot any fakes? Any advice is much appreciated.

Cheers

Edited December 20, 2021 by spoon
Spelling mistake

[TeaTime]

The RM used different metal alloys* (mainly copper) when the silver content changed to 50%. I have some florins from that era that show a brassey hue on the wear points.  For what worn examples of these coins are worth i just can't see any point in faking them.

* I'm not entirely sure if the different alloys were intentional or if the mint just used poor quality copper with impurities.

(The chap in the video stating that 100% silver doesn't tarnish is mistaken).

I wouldn't put it past our Chinese friends to fake low value coins (a quick look on Ali Express shows a few) but i have never come across any denomination under a half-crown that wasn't so obviously a fake as to be laughable.

 

[spoon]

 Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.

Can i be cheeky and ask you to look at this link and give your opinion on it because i have never even held a pre 1947 coin and i really don't have a clue when it comes to fake coins.

Fake silver sixpences may be more common than you think - MDF Metal Detecting Resource (metaldetectingforum.co.uk)

This is an article from a metal detecting forum basically saying that a proportion  of the sixpences he finds are actually very convincing fakes. He states that the fakes are vintage fakes and he knows they are fakes as the plough has damaged them and revealed the centre to not be silver. He provides images of the damaged coins to back his claims. In his opinion the ratio of sixpences that he finds that  are fake is roughly the same ratio that modern £1 coins are fake, roughly 6% in his opinion. Do you think his claims are true that good vintage fakes account for a  proportion of the sixpences.

Am i worrying about nothing?

Cheers

 

[Midasfrog]

A lot of fake coins would be thrown into a field which probably explains why so many are found metal detecting 🧐 

But I would check any silver / gold that you purchase and be on the lookout for fakes because there are so many of every type including bars being mass produced including Roman , medieval coinage right up to 2022 

[spoon]

That's great advice guys and really makes sense.

I did not consider that there has always been a certain  percentage of nearly all coins from history that are fake and  that the  pre 1947 stuff is no different so i need to do the normal checks but in general the pre 1947 is a low risk for fakes.

One more question please.........regarding the normal checks, are they any different with the pre 1947 stuff,  is there anything else i should do apart from weight it and measure it or will that be enough.

Thanks for your help

 

 

[TeaTime]

Contemporary forgeries - they would probably be worth more as a forgery than for the scrap silver content (approx 75p) of a genuine worn 50% silver sixpence. Even in the 1930's forging a sixpence would only gain you the equivalent of around £1 in todays money. 

I do find this subject interesting and read up on the debasing of UK coinage between the wars ( i didn't read about it between the wars - it was much later 😁). The fact that the mint was using alloys that had never previously been used for coinage meant that there were some anomalies in the quality and composition of the finished coins. That would make it very difficult to say for certain that a coin was not manufactured at the mint.

I have come across contemporary forgeries before but never in the numbers that some people have claimed are out there - and never in enough quantity to make much of a difference in a silver stack. I believe the issue is more with people who are paying money for numismatic examples rather than those buying purely for silver content.

 

 

[spoon]

4 minutes ago, TeaTime said:

Contemporary forgeries - they would probably be worth more as a forgery than for the scrap silver content (approx 75p) of a genuine worn 50% silver sixpence. Even in the 1930's forging a sixpence would only gain you the equivalent of around £1 in todays money. 

I do find this subject interesting and read up on the debasing of UK coinage between the wars ( i didn't read about it between the wars - it was much later 😁). The fact that the mint was using alloys that had never previously been used for coinage meant that there were some anomalies in the quality and composition of the finished coins. That would make it very difficult to say for certain that a coin was not manufactured at the mint.

I have come across contemporary forgeries before but never in the numbers that some people have claimed are out there - and never in enough quantity to make much of a difference in a silver stack. I believe the issue is more with people who are paying money for numismatic examples rather than those buying purely for silver content.

 

 

 Thanks for the info.

How do you personally spot the small number of contemporary forgeries that you have come across and what checks do you do to spot any fakes?

Cheers

[Bigmarc]

Interesting thread, cheers

[TeaTime]

Most forgeries that were meant to deceive the public when the coins were in circulation are pretty poor and can be spotted with the naked eye. They relied on people being too busy to check their change (a bit like some of the modern £1 coins which had the wrong reverse or incorrect edge lettering) or were designed to deceive until they started to wear, at which point the base metal would be plainly visible.

I generally use my knowledge of coins to spot fakes. It's not something tangible, just a feel for when a coin is 'right'.  Silver just has a texture and look that is hard to replicate. If i was in doubt i would measure and weigh the coin. That would normally be enough. There are more thorough ways to check that the metal is true but i have not felt the need to use them.

The majority of the coins i have purchased have been through well-known auction houses - you may pay a little more than private sales but, in theory, they should have done enough to authenticate the coins.

When it comes to buying bulk for stacking then there really isn't a lot you can do other than rely on the fact that coins sold just for silver value are not often faked. 

[spoon]

 

10 minutes ago, TeaTime said:

Most forgeries that were meant to deceive the public when the coins were in circulation are pretty poor and can be spotted with the naked eye. They relied on people being too busy to check their change (a bit like some of the modern £1 coins which had the wrong reverse or incorrect edge lettering) or were designed to deceive until they started to wear, at which point the base metal would be plainly visible.

I generally use my knowledge of coins to spot fakes. It's not something tangible, just a feel for when a coin is 'right'.  Silver just has a texture and look that is hard to replicate. If i was in doubt i would measure and weigh the coin. That would normally be enough. There are more thorough ways to check that the metal is true but i have not felt the need to use them.

The majority of the coins i have purchased have been through well-known auction houses - you may pay a little more than private sales but, in theory, they should have done enough to authenticate the coins.

When it comes to buying bulk for stacking then there really isn't a lot you can do other than rely on the fact that coins sold just for silver value are not often faked. 

Thank you for taking your time to educate me and others about this.

Over the last few days i got really excited when i found out you can get .500 silver  at spot but yesterday i was deflated and  worried that it would not be a good idea due to potential fakes but you have restored my confidence to go for it as even if 5% are fakes it would still be a bargain effectively paying 5% premium rather than the 30% premiums i have paid to dealers.

As you have said the odd low value fake will not make a big difference in a large stack and and i should just do the basic checks that you do and in time i will get better at spotting the odd fake that does exist.

Thanks again 👍

[modofantasma]

I tend to buy mine in bulk and do check through manually by hand. Occasionally find an odd one that's say post 1947 but equally from time to time there's a pre 1920 on occasion. If you have a few that you know to be genuine often you notice when one is 'a bit strange' whether it sounded different or felt thicker or something even without any fancy testing equipment 

[SidS]

Have you ever found a sterling 1920 coin? I've had a few sixpences and at least one half crown that I believe to be sterling variants. I have never had a way to prove it though. So they're bagged up with the pre-47 stuff.

 

[modofantasma]

1 hour ago, SidS said:

Have you ever found a sterling 1920 coin? I've had a few sixpences and at least one half crown that I believe to be sterling variants. I have never had a way to prove it though. So they're bagged up with the pre-47 stuff.

 

Yes. Check the date. Also if you jingle them together the pre 1920 sterling coin will sound different to the 1920-1946

[KevjustKev]

On 20/12/2021 at 11:42, spoon said:

Hi, as a noob  I want to get the opinion of other forum members. In the linked video this guy is saying that in his opinion he is coming accross lots of fake pre 1947 coins. I have also seen a  youtube comment from an  apparent jewellery shop owner who is also saying that he  has seen large batches of fake plated pre 1947 coins.

On this forum I have seen comments saying that because the silver content is only .500 then it would not be worth the effort to fake them......who is correct? I really want to collect largr amounts of pre 1947 but I must admit I am worried about fakes....should I be? 

Will the normal magnet,  weight and dimension checks be enough to spot any fakes? Any advice is much appreciated.

Cheers

If you wish to collect la large amount I do have some for sale, 40 oz's, so 20 oz's of silver, enough to get you started?

[modofantasma]

14 minutes ago, tallthinkev said:

If you wish to collect la large amount I do have some for sale, 40 oz's, so 20 oz's of silver, enough to get you started?

Is it on a listing? 

[KevjustKev]

3 hours ago, modofantasma said:

Is it on a listing? 

Not as yet, I was kind of joking, but I can have a sort out 

[spoon]

14 hours ago, tallthinkev said:

Not as yet, I was kind of joking, but I can have a sort out 

 Yes i am  in the market for some pre 1947 stuff.

Recently there was a trader on here selling  pre 1947 at spot for £280 a kilo  and that is the kind of deal i am looking for.

I am not expecting you to match that but  i am waiting out for a good deal as i want to buy at spot.

👍

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by spoon

[LawrenceChard]

On 20/12/2021 at 12:42, spoon said:

Hi, as a noob  I want to get the opinion of other forum members. In the linked video this guy is saying that in his opinion he is coming accross lots of fake pre 1947 coins. I have also seen a  youtube comment from an  apparent jewellery shop owner who is also saying that he  has seen large batches of fake plated pre 1947 coins.

On this forum I have seen comments saying that because the silver content is only .500 then it would not be worth the effort to fake them......who is correct? I really want to collect largr amounts of pre 1947 but I must admit I am worried about fakes....should I be? 

Will the normal magnet,  weight and dimension checks be enough to spot any fakes? Any advice is much appreciated.

Cheers

In the past, I have hand-sorted thousands of £100 sacks of pre-1947 UK silver coins. This was mainly to remove amy post-1946 coins, but also to retain any pre-1920 coins.

I almost certainly would have detected any fakes. The fact is I cannot remember seeing any.

I have not watched the video, but I firmly believe the number of contemporary fake pre-1947 silver coins is so low as to be negligible for most purposes.  

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by LawrenceChard

[modofantasma]

7 hours ago, spoon said:

 Yes i am  in the market for some pre 1947 stuff.

Recently there was a trader on here selling  pre 1947 at spot for £280 a kilo  and that is the kind of deal i am looking for.

I am not expecting you to match that but  i am waiting out for a good deal as i want to buy at spot.

 

Should be able to find a similar deal around easy enough