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Research Pays Off


Pete

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One of the big benefits of joining a forum like this one is sharing knowledge.

Once upon a time I used to buy coins from Weighton and today received an exciting email offering for one week only a discount on the half ounce great white shark.

Price reduced from £16.95 to £14.94 - good isn't it ...until you see STG prices !

Even the 1 ounce saltwater crocodile from STG is only £14.38 so cheaper for twice the silver.

Homework definitely pays off.

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I agree Pete, I too was quite happy to buy from the eBay etc, but I have also made some big purchases from coininvestdirect a couple of years ago.

 

I still buy from eBay but now much more picky.

 

Now I am very selective in my purchasing, and it has helped me to get my average to less than £20/Oz. Next target is less than £19/Oz bring it on.

 

So the next time any of you are down the pub have another beer and say Cheers, and a big Thank You to The silver forum.

I will when I get back to the UK.

 

Cheers

Keith

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Now this might open a can of worms....

 

If people continue to purchase their coins from Europe (using usually the new German vat loophole), i.e coins that have been purchased from outside the EU are only taxed at 19% on the profit margin, not the total price, our homegrow coin dealers will find it incredibly hard to compete against this situation with VAT at 20% in the UK.

 

What then happens, longterm these dealers already few and far between in this country, are going to struggle to survive through no fault of their own, we the coin buying public will then lose out on their vast knowledge and help.. Do we really all want to deal forever with faceless companies or do we really not mind, is price and price alone the only thing that matters??

 

I have dealt with Weighton coins for many years and I can say that I do not mind paying a little more for his coins, I see that as a price worth paying for the vast amount of Knowledge exchanged in our chats, I may pay a little more but I do get better value I believe overall.

 

I guess this is the same question over and over with bookshops, TV suppliers etc, do we only want the lowest price or are we prepared to pay a little more for some included SERVICE?

 

Please dont dismiss Weighton for your purchases (Disclaimer...I am Not Richard.. He does not know I am writing this!!)

 

 

Feel free to get the flamethrowers out!!!!

 

Regards

Dave

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No flamethrowers here Dave.

I understand your point entirely, but it's often down to price for me. If I can get it cheaper from a tried & tested company then I will.

But I do buy in the UK as well, probably because I'm a collector. I also like to support the forum sponsors when I can.

Finally, I sincerely doubt (but don't actually know) that the few of us savvy enough to know about the cheaper EU silver will make a huge difference to UK vendors. I'd say we only make up about 0.001% at best of UK based silver buyers.

I do agree with your point though, but as most see stacking as an investment then it will often come down to cost.

Stacker since 2013

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Hi Dan

 

 

Now that raises a point I hadnt considered.. are we that small of a percentage? I am not sure, it only takes a click of a mouse and 5 mins research and you could be purchasing from the internet.. I suspect that those of us savvy enough to be purchasing PMs (Only time will tell.. could insert "stupid" instead of "savvy!" :D ) are the type of people who research our subject to the best of our abilities.. who knows... I would like to think you are right but fear I may be..

 

To underline my point, I believe that although I may have paid a little more from purchasing from Weighton, the knowledge I have gained has saved me way more than I have ever spent extra.

 

I also purchase from ebay and other coinshops, I look for value obviously, however I recognise there is a balance as in everything and that balance sometimes is worth a few pound extra.

 

I just wanted to make a point to some of the new starters in this field that coin collecting is not solely price related, forging a good relationship with your LCS and other dealers is a part of the hobby that shouldnt be forgotten about, it pays off handsomely sometimes!

 

Regards

Dave

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Hi Dan

Now that raises a point I hadnt considered.. are we that small of a percentage? I am not sure, it only takes a click of a mouse and 5 mins research and you could be purchasing from the internet.. I suspect that those of us savvy enough to be purchasing PMs (Only time will tell.. could insert "stupid" instead of "savvy!" :D ) are the type of people who research our subject to the best of our abilities.. who knows... I would like to think you are right but fear I may be..

To underline my point, I believe that although I may have paid a little more from purchasing from Weighton, the knowledge I have gained has saved me way more than I have ever spent extra.

I also purchase from ebay and other coinshops, I look for value obviously, however I recognise there is a balance as in everything and that balance sometimes is worth a few pound extra.

I just wanted to make a point to some of the new starters in this field that coin collecting is not solely price related, forging a good relationship with your LCS and other dealers is a part of the hobby that shouldnt be forgotten about, it pays off handsomely sometimes!

Regards

Dave

Dave,

I still think we are a very small percentage of silver buyers in the UK.

Out of interest, what do you see as the benefit of paying the extra? The only one I can see is shipping time really.

If you are a stacker, that's probably of no consequence. Same goes in some way for a collector, if the item is available.

I have dealt with you a number of times in the past, quite a few from memory, would I buy regular bullion from you, it's doubtful. But you generally don't sell it, so it's all good.

If I wanted 2014 maples, I'd have to go EU and pay way less than any UK vendor could match, there is no benefit whatsoever from paying for the extra (in my eyes).

But I do agree with you, people like yourself and Timbocoins for example have been very good to me, I like to keep all my options open. I have trusted personal (non business) suppliers in Germany, USA, Japan and Australia.

A very interesting debate.

Stacker since 2013

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I saw something on bullionbypost yesterday but has been taken down today. I was looking at silver maple leaf coins and there was a VAT free option. Also for philharmonics. Maybe it's something they will introduce soon. Rob at bullionbypost thinks that the old fashioned dealers will struggle in the future because they don't move with the times. BBP are also looking to move into the european markets soon. They won't rest on their laurels.

 

Remember, the price stated on websites is not final. If you call a dealer and ask for a better price, you might just get it. If you don't ask, you don't get. I saved over £2000 on an order with them in 2010 just because I asked for it.

 

I have been waiting for Daniel at STG to get back to me for 4 days. Still waiting. Doesn't he know who I am? Lol. :P Pull your finger out mate because there's always ESB and I have a big mouth! :lol:

 

I've used weighton alot in the past. Always found them good and Richard is a nice chap. Family run business so a different attitude. I've never used Chards despite them being very knowledgeable, but since Lawrence has a habit of bad mouthing the competition (breaking the first rule of professional sales), it puts me off.

 

Depends how much you're buying also. If it's an oz or two, and it's a couple of pounds more, I don't hesitate using UK dealers. Shipping small amounts of silver from EU even if VAT free will always be more expensive anyway due to shipping.

 

Like with most big businesses, the bigger they are, the less they care because they know there's plenty more where you came from. With every dealer fighting for a portion of the pie, who knows what the future might bring. I read on Chards website how HMRC have performed a tax grab where apparently they shouldn't have, putting stress on their business.

 

I know other dealers where HMRC are holding onto dealers' money when they shouldn't putting strain. Who knows what the our masters at the EU may come up with in the future. The market may look totally different.

 

Margins are very slim anyway (1% - 2%) and the bulk of the profit actually comes from Gold sales. Alot of dealers would still survive without selling silver.

 

People with alot of money don't mind paying that little extra for anything. It reassures them. TBH, people with alot of money tend to buy Gold anyway (not always but mainly). That's why Silver is considered the poor mans Gold. Also they like to know, if something goes wrong, they can take a trip up the motorway and bang some heads. Like I said earlier, still waiting to hear back from STG for days and a few calls. That wouldn't happen with many dealers in the UK.

 

The Bullion Room who had offices across the Greece and a refinery in Birmingham went bust last year, just months after Eamon Gaughan was boasting about how much he was worth in alot of editorials. Public perception was that they were very successful when actually in millions of £ of debt to the money shop. If something like that happens with a european dealer, good luck getting your money back. One change in the law and poof, they might not be around.

 

I like to spread it about.....my money that is, not my....... :o

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Let us not be too sympathetic to our UK dealers who charge full price for an ounce of secondhand silver with zero VAT.

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So do you think BBP would reduce the price for a mixed order?  If you order 100 of one thing then 1 of another you're getting done on the postage which they factor into the prices.

 

I'm sure they would. Ask and ye may receive. Most people don't. I play one dealer against the other every time I order. Just phone, tell them what you want and ask for the best price. I don't think I've ever paid the website asking price apart from when ordering my Kiwi coins from Weighton.

 

5 days waiting for STG to get back now. I'm not as impressed with them as many on here are. I'm contacting them to get a better price than what's on their website since the premiums they make are much higher than any dealer so they have alot of room to move. I'd be mad to pay their website prices. I will use ESB as their choice is much bigger and nicer selection and they get back to your enquiries asap. Not too bothered if they are cheaper or not. You snooze, you lose STG.

 

Anyway, if it's all just about price, why would anyone order bullion coins at all from anyone when you can get predecimal coins for spot price to 2% over spot all in?

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I just wanted to make a point to some of the new starters in this field that coin collecting is not solely price related, forging a good relationship with your LCS and other dealers is a part of the hobby that shouldnt be forgotten about, it pays off handsomely sometimes!

 

 

It sure does.

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How did you contact them? They've always been quick on their sales@silver-to-go.com e-mail with me!

How can you actually see what premium they add, if you don't know their purchase prices?

 

 

I can't be bothered to dig out all trade prices for every product from mints and refiners (I don't see the point either), but here's just one example for silver britannias for you. Probably even better with the quantities they buy.

 

post-130-0-84374800-1400242170_thumb.jpg

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I'm a bit late to this discussion, but here is my silver pennies worth.  

 

At those prices above bullion price the Dealers do have room to move.

Don't blame the buyers, blame the Chancellor of the ex who decided to put V.A.T at 20%, how can a Dealer compete at a handicap like that.

Sometimes on orders of 10 coins it is evens to order from UK or Germany eg UK Lunar Horse Atkinsons and Aurinum.

Sharing Knowledge here has helped me with what to buy, where to buy and when to buy.

British Dealers should not charge full price for 2nd hand BU coins (not including sort after coins here) as the V.A.T is only charged on the profit unlike new coins.

I have never rang a Dealer before and asked for a discount silly really, next time I make a big order (£1000) I might try it see what happens. 

I use Atkinsons and Chards if I buy Silver in the UK

I also use A couple of the site sponsors

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British Dealers should not charge full price for 2nd hand BU coins (not including sort after coins here) as the V.A.T is only charged on the profit unlike new coins.

 

The global accounting / margin scheme (I think) applies to coin dealers (collectable & 2nd hand like you said) as opposed to bullion dealers (investment). The likes of Chards and Weighton roll with it but the likes of Atkinsons can't because they also sell investment bars. The vast majority of sales have to be collectable coins. It is probably the most complicated piece of legislation I have ever read and I still don't understand it fully even though it's been explained to me many times on the phone by dealers who do operate it. HMRC can't explain it properly either when I asked them :huh: It would actually be great if somebody on here operates the scheme and could explain it to a dunce like me at some stage. :blink: That's my understanding....or lack of anyway. The waters are very murky.

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I didn't realise it was that complicated BB.

I just assumed that it was VAT on profit only for used (pre-owned) coins / bullion only.

Administrative nightmare understandably, but that's not really my problem.

If VAT isn't chargeable, it shouldn't be charged.

Like you say, it's probably the case that none of us know the ins and outs of it, would be interesting to know the full ramifications of it all.

Stacker since 2013

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My understanding is that a secondhand silver coin can be sold by a VAT registered seller choosing zero rate.

I once bought new and secondhand coins and received an invoice showing 20% VAT on the new coins but 0% VAT on the used coins.

However the total price charged was the same so the dealer made a killing on the used coin sale.

Strange to generally find UK dealers are regularly the cheapest for gold but not silver with VAT removed.

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Strange to generally find UK dealers are regularly the cheapest for gold but not silver with VAT removed.

Even for UK coins like the britannia!!!

If dealers started to do junk bags close to spot, I'd be all over them like a tramp on chips!!!

Stacker since 2013

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I think I get you Bullion Boy, 

 

If a dealer sells Bars eg 1kg then they are classed as a bullion Dealer V.A.T charged all the time.

 

If a dealer Just sell coins new, old, antic, then that dealer can charge 20% VAT on the profits on 2nd hand coins.

 

To me though the real culprit here is the the Government (chancellor) if they leveled the playing field give the dealers a chance, it would give us more choice too. Remove VAT    

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Remove VAT

I blooming hope not, most of my stack was bought with VAT, so it would reduce the value by 20%.

If people can buy silver in the UK for spot plus a small premium like the US, they won't be paying £20 ish like they are today.

Stacker since 2013

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As i understood it, gold coins and bars do not have VAT on them because they are for investment. HMRC state that to be VAT exempt a gold coin must be of a purity of not less than .900; that it is or has been legal tender in its country of origin, and that it sells at a price that does not exceed 180 per cent of its spot gold content. Now why can't the same apply to silver coins, as they meet all the criteria. Sure, its an "industrial metal" but does any industry currently buy their raw silver in the form of Britannias or Lunar Horses? No, of course not. Such silver coins should therefore be VAT-free, or at least the metal content should be.

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I tried and failed to get a government petition started to change the VAT on silver coins to at least match the German 7% VAT.

This year the Germans raised their VAT to 19% so that didn't help.

The Germans though seem to have a work around using differential VAT and I would have assumed this is an EU directive so why can our UK suppliers not impliment this ?

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  • 2 months later...

Research definitely pays, can't believe this layered bar has 8 bids.

It annoys me, the sellers are obviously deliberately misleading the buyers, probably new to silver, they need to sign up here first.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1Oz-Sunshine-Mint-Pure-999-Fine-Silver-Clad-Bullion-Bar-With-Case-No-Reserve-/380957330251?pt=UK_Coins_Bullion_Bars_SM&hash=item58b2d38b4b

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