Investing in rum - Foursquare

[Antwerpstacker]

Today I finally managed to snap my first bottle of foursquare😁😁

 

[272]

Just now, Antwerpstacker said:

Today I finally managed to snap my first bottle of foursquare😁😁

 

Well done! Was it by auction or shop?

[Antwerpstacker]

Was in Holland in a town called Goes. Walked into a liquor store that had a stunning selection of rums. Could have easily spend a few thousands there. Only got me this one and a bottle of Aalborg aqua it. Def will return there with a budget one day. Paid 80euro for the fs, no idea if that was cheap or expensive, but happy to get me a bottle. 

[272]

2009 edition goes for about £120 in UK shops at the moment so 80 euros is pretty good value!

[Heirlooms]

1 hour ago, Antwerpstacker said:

Today I finally managed to snap my first bottle of foursquare😁😁

 

Nice congrats! I managed to snag 2 from a shop in London. Its just the infamous 2006 that eludes me from my vintage date rumn 😏. Prices are still a bit crazy for me on that one

[Heirlooms]

Managed to find an infamous 2006 Foursquare bottled by Velier. Set me back a few bob but looking to hold it super long term so not too bothered. The plan its to literally pick up 1 (maybe 2) of the vintage bottles a year and build over time. The vintage is one of the more plentiful in the series (about 27,000 bottles per year) but as time goes on and more bottles are drunk they should appreciate in price nicely

[Stacktastic]

9 hours ago, Heirlooms said:

Managed to find an infamous 2006 Foursquare bottled by Velier. Set me back a few bob but looking to hold it super long term so not too bothered. The plan its to literally pick up 1 (maybe 2) of the vintage bottles a year and build over time. The vintage is one of the more plentiful in the series (about 27,000 bottles per year) but as time goes on and more bottles are drunk they should appreciate in price nicely

Nice finally got it then!! .

I was looking at the auctions yesterday & now people dont have free money to burn its probably a better time to buy. 
Especially going into Jan as les peopler getting pissed over the Christmas period or buying presents. 
I saw some really silly prices of some of the bottles when I did my research on it. One of the bottles sold for £1200!!! 

I think I will start putting in low bids for certain bottles and should be able to pick off 2-3 per auction. 
Average I should save a lot of money over 10 years that way. I would buy them new but they sell out & its easier this way. 

I cant remember if I posted this, but this is the data from the last 4 years of auctions (excluding this summer)
so its pretty accurrate excluding some of the really over valued purchases, i bet it was the same person LOL. 

I have let this sit with me for 6months now & think its a great investment. it wont make me rich, but it will appreciate. 
Shilopbooth is one example, that was £75 in the summer now its selling for £120 on average!
 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Stacktastic

[Stacktastic]

Just googled about foursquare investing & this came up 😛 

Im trying to work out what the most collectible cheap Foursquare rum is?
I dont have a lot of spare cash as its  reserved for silver & miner stocks, but want to start buying now. 

I know collections would probably be a good bet, but what single bottles present the best value?
I would assume the limited casks would come up top, but also the date, so the 14-16 years should appreciate I would imagine better??

What about the following: 

SHIBBOLETH - 16
EMPERY - 14
NOBILIARY - 14
REDOUTABLE - 14

The rest are £200+ bit out of my price range?
I think I might just put low bids on all of them the day before & see how I get on?

Interestingly enough i have just gone back to January on the auctions and bottles of the above were selling for way more money?
I can only assume that belts are tightening perhaps or people are out and about more? 
A bottle of Shibboleth was about £130 - last auction £100-110. Even the Empery was not far off that! 
This could get interesting if people start struggling to pay bills going forward & have a dozen bottles of Foursquare. 

Lower end fair value I would say - Shibboleth is in demand, must be quite special. Winner for collecting if you ask me. 

Empery - 87
Nobiliary - 96
Redoutable - 91
Shibboleth - 101


 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Stacktastic

[272]

https://www.cgarsltd.co.uk/foursquare-indelible-exceptional-cask-selection-mark-xviii-70cl-p-49519.html

[Stacktastic]

12 hours ago, 272 said:

https://www.cgarsltd.co.uk/foursquare-indelible-exceptional-cask-selection-mark-xviii-70cl-p-49519.html

Might buy that to drink actually. If you see any more for sale over 14 years let me know. I think the ones over 50% hold better value sop its one of my box ticks as well as age. 
I had to rescue my car from a motorway services Monday so missed the auction, but something tells me the price decline will continue as we creep into the summer. 

2009 here, but I suspect its because they are potentially not as bought (compared to Shillobeth)??
Great to drink for an unsophisticated pallet like mine

https://www.cgarsltd.co.uk/foursquare-year-old-2009-70cl-p-48515.html

Edited May 18, 2022 by Stacktastic

[272]

30 minutes ago, Stacktastic said:

Might buy that to drink actually. If you see any more for sale over 14 years let me know. I think the ones over 50% hold better value sop its one of my box ticks as well as age. 
I had to rescue my car from a motorway services Monday so missed the auction, but something tells me the price decline will continue as we creep into the summer. 

2009 here, but I suspect its because they are potentially not as bought (compared to Shillobeth)??
Great to drink for an unsophisticated pallet like mine

https://www.cgarsltd.co.uk/foursquare-year-old-2009-70cl-p-48515.html

Yeah a lot of flippers jumped on the Indelible. I got 2 at roughly retail price (cheaper than this) from auction a few months back. But given the popularity of the four square series it should be worth holding over the longer term. Caroni is where the real money is - especially the Velier expressions but that ship has sailed. Hampdens might be next popular distillery.

Edited May 18, 2022 by 272

[FourNinesFine]

I hope you don't mind me jumping in.  Fascinating subject and thread this. I've been reading with interest.

I've had a passing interest in whisky as my dad was a collector many years ago. Nothing earth-moving but something I just remember bubbling along in the background and from seeing some of the bottles in the display cabinet. And of course, every now and then, you'd get wind of a certain bottle going at auction for eye-watering money.

Following your very entertaining and insightful comments here, I'll certainly be keeping my eyes peeled for a 2006 Foursquare.

If you'll forgive me a novice enquiry though...  I wondered, is there a general parallel to be drawn between investment spirits and investment PMs? 

 

I'll explain what I mean...

There are sought-after bottles. Special editions, rarities, the whisky / rum equivalents of 'low mintages' etc. The same applies to PMs - especially if you include nuimismatic elements.
But also, there's the 'bullion' end of the game. Stacking, not so much to make a killing at the other end, but to house wealth in a physical asset for a period of time, with the intention that it 'holds' it's value and hopefully beats inflation.
Is that the same for spirits, generally speaking? At the bullion end of whisky (for instance) would a standard, retail bottle retain its value and have a consistent floor over 'x' years?  I don't necessarily mean 70cl of Famous Grouse from Asda, but equally, nothing outlandishly 'special'.

An example:  Yamazaki 12 yr old currently retails in the £130ish bracket. A standard bottle of JW Blue Label - £100ish.  Would it be reasonable to expect that they should outpace inflation if they were held for 10 / 20 years?  Or is it really only the true investment end of the market that's got the growth / returns potential.

I know it's all speculation in the end, just interested in your thoughts.  (Because I don't have £20,000 for a 1965 Macallan, but I could scrape £130 together for a Yamazaki).

Cheers,

 

FNF.

[272]

3 hours ago, FourNinesFine said:

I hope you don't mind me jumping in.  Fascinating subject and thread this. I've been reading with interest.

I've had a passing interest in whisky as my dad was a collector many years ago. Nothing earth-moving but something I just remember bubbling along in the background and from seeing some of the bottles in the display cabinet. And of course, every now and then, you'd get wind of a certain bottle going at auction for eye-watering money.

Following your very entertaining and insightful comments here, I'll certainly be keeping my eyes peeled for a 2006 Foursquare.

If you'll forgive me a novice enquiry though...  I wondered, is there a general parallel to be drawn between investment spirits and investment PMs? 

 

I'll explain what I mean...

There are sought-after bottles. Special editions, rarities, the whisky / rum equivalents of 'low mintages' etc. The same applies to PMs - especially if you include nuimismatic elements.
But also, there's the 'bullion' end of the game. Stacking, not so much to make a killing at the other end, but to house wealth in a physical asset for a period of time, with the intention that it 'holds' it's value and hopefully beats inflation.
Is that the same for spirits, generally speaking? At the bullion end of whisky (for instance) would a standard, retail bottle retain its value and have a consistent floor over 'x' years?  I don't necessarily mean 70cl of Famous Grouse from Asda, but equally, nothing outlandishly 'special'.

An example:  Yamazaki 12 yr old currently retails in the £130ish bracket. A standard bottle of JW Blue Label - £100ish.  Would it be reasonable to expect that they should outpace inflation if they were held for 10 / 20 years?  Or is it really only the true investment end of the market that's got the growth / returns potential.

I know it's all speculation in the end, just interested in your thoughts.  (Because I don't have £20,000 for a 1965 Macallan, but I could scrape £130 together for a Yamazaki).

Cheers,

 

FNF.

Hi - have you looked at the Let's Talk Whisky thread? I think most of what you've asked has been covered. I don't think the bullion analogy quite works for main stream bottlings - some like Macallans may increase in value if the standard offer changes for example when Macallan started using Bourbon casks from around 2004, which led some to believe only pre-2004 editions are 'truly  Macallan'. Similarly they  changed the Fine Oak series in 2017, scrapping some versions like the 10, 21 and 30 year old, making these more sought after. That is the exception rather than the rule though. 

If you want a bullion approach probably best to look at investment in casks - the business model for most is to buy or share the purchase of a (new make or young) cask and mature it and then sell it to a bottler via a broker after it has matured for a few years, gaining the benefit in the increase in value as an older spirit. its basically the model for Whiskyinvestdirect for example who act as a a broker and store the whisky for a fee too.  You can then buy and sell at volume without having to find somewhere to store it all. The other benefit of casks is that as a wasting asset they  are not subject to capital gains tax.

Edited May 19, 2022 by 272

[FourNinesFine]

Ah, that's very interesting. Thanks for responding.

I had not seen the other thread you mention. I only stumbled across this by accident when I clicked the 'next unread topic' button.

I'll certainly do some more digging around.

Thanks again.

 

FNF.

[PercyItsGreen]

Usually stop into Caddenheads whisky shop when on trip to Edinburgh. They have a few rum casks you can fill bottles directly from. Usually 55-60%. The Jamaican rum is dark and a lot like bourbon in my opinion. Guyana is my favourite, light and fruity. Sure they have Fiji rum as well. Never really considered it for investment but might rethink with current inflation and all that. Will get some pictures on my next visit. 

[Stacktastic]

On 06/06/2022 at 07:37, PercyItsGreen said:

Usually stop into Caddenheads whisky shop when on trip to Edinburgh. They have a few rum casks you can fill bottles directly from. Usually 55-60%. The Jamaican rum is dark and a lot like bourbon in my opinion. Guyana is my favourite, light and fruity. Sure they have Fiji rum as well. Never really considered it for investment but might rethink with current inflation and all that. Will get some pictures on my next visit. 

Sounds nice. Im certainly going to start building up a decent collection. 

This is my first one. £91. I bought 2 of them, but one is at my mums house. 

 

[272]

Still some in stock on TWE site

[LawrenceChard]

On 23/04/2021 at 22:10, Heirlooms said:

There'll probably won't be much interest but thought I'd put it out there. I started a small rum collection made up of the vintage releases from Foursquares Exceptional Cask Series. I've noticed that it has really garnered a lot of interest of late and was wondering if anyone else collects Foursquare rum or any other rums. Whiskey is the daddy of the spirit world of course but rum seems to be gathering pace

 

My wife once drank a whole bottle of rum!

😎

 

[Stacktastic]

On 14/06/2022 at 11:48, LawrenceChard said:

My wife once drank a whole bottle of rum!

😎

 

Then she went 'bom-bom'

I went a little mad on the auctions this week. 😛
I still have a Shibboleth from Europe and an Elyesium at my mums house. 

I was shocked at the £25 cost for ONE bottle from Europe!!
It still equalled the £130 I paid for the Shibboleth - little bit over valued, but it should be small change in a few years time. 

I bagged a few £65-75 indelible's to make up for it. 
The commission and delivery combined (10% and £22.50) worked out at 14.62 per bottle, which is also a bit steep!!

Average Indelible (x4) = £67.5+£14.62 = £82.12 (probbaly more like £78-80 as the others were more expensive). 
Shibboleth = £144 (yeah got a bit ripped off for that). 😛 
Retoutable (x3) = £116 + £14.62 = £131. I bought one quite high £130 - others at £110. Wont repeat that!

Shibboleth europe: £106 + £10.60 + £25 = £141.6
Taking the piiisss I know - but I duo think this bottle will be a winner long term & £20 wont even be an issue.  
Pklus they are obviously cheaper as the buyers take this into consideration dont they. Its cheaper than my UK one. 

I have noticed a seller from poland selling a ton of bottles, so if they come back I shall look at buying a load to be shipped to Poland. My thinking ids that if there is an over supply (plus peoples unfounded fears of the war) the price should be good - its a real investment one too. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Stacktastic

[Stacktastic]

On 10/06/2022 at 20:59, 272 said:

Still some in stock on TWE site

I so want to drink this. 
https://www.thewhiskyexchange.com/p/66727/foursquare-elysium-12-year-old-exclusive-to-the-whisky-exchange 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Stacktastic

[272]

25 minutes ago, Stacktastic said:

I so want to drink this. 
https://www.thewhiskyexchange.com/p/66727/foursquare-elysium-12-year-old-exclusive-to-the-whisky-exchange 

 

 

I thought you were going to - especially of you have 2?

[Stacktastic]

6 minutes ago, 272 said:

I thought you were going to - especially of you have 2?

No its a stick in the cupboard and forget about job. 
I intend to do this with a number of collectibles and what not on a regular basis. 
Not entirely sure what, but lego, art & watches seems interesting
Dont care really, but it needs 100% assurance it will at least double in value if not 10x within 5-10 years. 
Basically have a pension pot of tangibles as well as things that generate cash (buy to let).

But if I buy 30-40 of these over time, cracking open one on a special occasion would be fabulous. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Stacktastic

[272]

Sovereignty should be landing in the UK soon but not quite sure when.

Still looking for next Caroni / Velier to tap into. 

https://rumshopboy.com/2022/05/11/foursquareexceptional-cask-selection-xix-sovereignty/

 

[Stacktastic]

18 minutes ago, 272 said:

Still looking for next Caroni / Velier to tap into. 

PM me when you find anything as it makes sense to diversify.  
I have a feeling about rum - to me its like buying gold when it was £700 an ounce.
It wont make me rich, but it is great to have tangibles going into a 'you will own nothing' era. 😛   

Edited June 16, 2022 by Stacktastic

[Chorlton]

Is no one drinking their Rum 🙂

The trouble is once you drink any half decent rum the cheaper stuff just tastes like antiseptic 😝