A couple Qs regarding grade C sovereigns & best bang for buck coins for someone looking to buy gold in the UK.

[papabearxxx]

Hi there guys.

I am new to buying metals, so please be kind if what Im asking is irritatingly noobish.

Im based in the UK, and want to turn some of my bank digits in to physical wealth in the form of gold with the intention to hold, not to regularly buy and sell. At the moment, I plan to start off with buying 5 full sovereigns from a reputable Uk website..... But the thing is, they have 3 options. "Mint", "Secondary", and "Grade C".

Minty = £309.27 - Gold weight 0.235 Troy oz
Secondary = £308.38 - Gold weight 0.235 Troy oz
Grade C = £297.49 - Gold weight 0.2328 Troy oz 

Intrinsic value £294.54

Im not bothered at all from scratches and dents as I quite like it when coins have these, it gives character and makes you wonder about their pasts. Furthermore I won't view my gold purchases as an investment for money making purposes, but purely just for wealth protection.

So.......

1. Am I best off going with the grade Cs - If I were to change them back to fiat in years to come, will they really undercut me big time because its dented etc? - They will afterall have at least more than 0.23 oz of gold inside them. (Note: I did say I do not care about profiting, but at the same time I would like value for money)

2. Would sovereigns even be the best way for me to go - Being not fussed about CGT, are there non-British coins out there with better premiums and bang for buck that I can buy and sell as close as possible to spot as possible?

Any responses will be kindly appreciated!

Best regards,

O.

Edited April 3, 2021 by papabearxxx

[TringSilver]

My 2p would be that grade C "should" always get you spot or what the dealers are paying on any given day in line with the spot price. IE 97% or whatever their offer may be (they have to make a cut remember) 

Mint coins should get the above but you may be able to realise more on private sales, it's up to you if you want to take the extra £40-50 hit now on that potential upside. 

Just remember that some of these options could be on order with indefinite lead times as the dealer waits to get them in the door. So just be mindful of how patient you are.

I generally buy mint coins that can be delivered the next day or so.

[Paul]

given the unique terms you have like "MINTY" "GRADE C" it singles them out as a certain UK dealer you are considering buying from 

whatever you are buying, read your fine print before committing, or you may find youll have to wait weeks or months to get them in your hand

Not a great business practice, selling stuff you don't have, but some buyers seems to like it to save a couple of quid on the purchase price

[Paul]

@papabearxxx i see you are in London - to ensure immediate in hand delivery, you can look at buying in person 

you got Hatton Garden Metals & Baird & Co, in Hatton Garden  

ATS Bullion at the Savoy Hotel

and Sharps Pixley close to The Ritz on St James St 

All dealer with great rep

[SilverDrum]

Yes the low grade C will carry a lesser premium on resale, but also the "Minty" option may not retain all the dealers premium when sold privately. Even the mint coins will get spot on resale to dealers. The happy middle ground is the Secondary, or finding good deals on minty fresh coins as the are available.  

Truth is that they are all good purchase's, as long as the spot goes up 😅

 

Also noted that the quoted price's are for "Order-able" products, for which you could have an indefinite wait for delivery. If looking to hold your gold any time soon i would purchase else where! 

[Robda1986]

Depends how long you wanna wait for generic bullion I'd pay the extra and find a company that have them in stock as mentioned above there are alot nicer companies to deal with bullion by post, Atkinson, ats but I won't touch the company your thinking about with a barge poll heck I'd rather take my chance with ebay 

[Coolsmp]

I would only buy coins that are actually 'in stock'. As newbie avoid those that say 'orderable'. Clearly you've been looking at Chards but they do charge delivery so that increases your overall costs. There are better priced dealers out there with free postage. Sharps pixley looks good at the moment but do your own research.

[stefffana]

Hi, there are a lot of better options. It is another dealer who is selling 5 coins bundle brand new 2021 sovereign at a good price (1565 : 5 = 313 each at this moment), free delivery, in stock. For only £3-£4 more per coin in my opinion is better to buy brand new, very easy to sell them on private market when you will decide to sell. Also, always try to buy only what is in stock, with maximum 14 days delivery. With the spot price jumping and dropping every week, it is frustrating to wait your gold few month to arrive.

Also, here on forum I've seen a lot of very good offers from forum members.

Happy stacking!

Stefan.

[LawrenceChard]

On 03/04/2021 at 14:38, Paul said:

given the unique terms you have like "MINTY" "GRADE C" it singles them out as a certain UK dealer you are considering buying from 

whatever you are buying, read your fine print before committing, or you may find youll have to wait weeks or months to get them in your hand

Not a great business practice, selling stuff you don't have, but some buyers seems to like it to save a couple of quid on the purchase price

Yes, it seems clear he is talking about @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer.

Although we would rather sell coins we have in stock, but in times of high demand like now and the 2007/8/9 credit/banking/sub-prime crisis, readily available bullion stock dries up, and not just on a UK level, but worldwide. During the Covid crisis, production and transport has also created supply tightness. Some dealers simply hike their premiums to rip-off levels, some shut up shop. We are happy to sell new coins which we often have to wait for too. We also make a market in secondary market bullion coins, but only those we have a reasonable expectation of covering in a reasonable time. 

While @Paul is entitled to his opinion "Not a great business practice, selling stuff you don't have", we disagree. This has been discussed on TSF previously, at great length. We always make it as clear as we possibly can whether we have coins in stock, and for items not in stock, expected supply times for new coins, secondary market supply is much harder to forecast. 

There is no need to "read the small print". If there is any likely delay, we show a very in-your-face pop-up banner which spells it out very clearly. This pop-up cannot be closed or dismissed withour making a positive choice about whether to continue or choose an alternative.

The main point is that we offer a choice.

 

[LawrenceChard]

On 04/04/2021 at 08:16, Coolsmp said:

I would only buy coins that are actually 'in stock'. As newbie avoid those that say 'orderable'. Clearly you've been looking at Chards but they do charge delivery so that increases your overall costs. There are better priced dealers out there with free postage. Sharps pixley looks good at the moment but do your own research.

We would rather sell coins which are actually in stock.

Sure we charge for delivery, and so do all our competitors, except that many of them simply include it in the price to start with, then claim "free postage". 

For most of our popular bullion products, we now show a price / premium comparison chart, with and without postage, and about 90% of the time, our prices are lower across the board, and across most quantity breaks.

[Hunter87]

On 03/04/2021 at 12:54, papabearxxx said:

Hi there guys.

I am new to buying metals, so please be kind if what Im asking is irritatingly noobish.

Im based in the UK, and want to turn some of my bank digits in to physical wealth in the form of gold with the intention to hold, not to regularly buy and sell. At the moment, I plan to start off with buying 5 full sovereigns from a reputable Uk website..... But the thing is, they have 3 options. "Mint", "Secondary", and "Grade C".

Minty = £309.27 - Gold weight 0.235 Troy oz
Secondary = £308.38 - Gold weight 0.235 Troy oz
Grade C = £297.49 - Gold weight 0.2328 Troy oz 

Intrinsic value £294.54

Im not bothered at all from scratches and dents as I quite like it when coins have these, it gives character and makes you wonder about their pasts. Furthermore I won't view my gold purchases as an investment for money making purposes, but purely just for wealth protection.

So.......

1. Am I best off going with the grade Cs - If I were to change them back to fiat in years to come, will they really undercut me big time because its dented etc? - They will afterall have at least more than 0.23 oz of gold inside them. (Note: I did say I do not care about profiting, but at the same time I would like value for money)

2. Would sovereigns even be the best way for me to go - Being not fussed about CGT, are there non-British coins out there with better premiums and bang for buck that I can buy and sell as close as possible to spot as possible?

Any responses will 

[Hunter87]

I’ve been stacking now for a year and like you I am also in London. I don’t see stacking as an investment but rather a store of wealth or a physical bank account if I am honest and I wasn’t stacking gold then I’d probably be buying other c**p that interests me! which would ultimately lose value down the line. 
 

After alot of research I’ve decided to focus on stacking modern bullion full sovereigns and 1/4 Britannia’s. I usually get them from Baird & co as I have found them to be the cheapest that I can find. So far I’ve picked up 13 full Sovereigns and 2 Britannias. I’ve decided to start stacking Britannias as the sovereign stacking became a little boring after a while. 
 

I think it’s a good idea if you get bored to pick something you like and buy it every now and then. 

[GoldDiggerDave]

5 hours ago, Hunter87 said:

I’ve been stacking now for a year and like you I am also in London. I don’t see stacking as an investment but rather a store of wealth or a physical bank account if I am honest and I wasn’t stacking gold then I’d probably be buying other c**p that interests me! which would ultimately lose value down the line. 
 

After alot of research I’ve decided to focus on stacking modern bullion full sovereigns and 1/4 Britannia’s. I usually get them from Baird & co as I have found them to be the cheapest that I can find. So far I’ve picked up 13 full Sovereigns and 2 Britannias. I’ve decided to start stacking Britannias as the sovereign stacking became a little boring after a while. 
 

I think it’s a good idea if you get bored to pick something you like and buy it every now and then. 

I like collecting older sovereigns and buy the best condition as close to the sovereign bullion price I can.  The older sovereigns with  silver in the alloy are far more attractive than the modern bullion sovereigns IMO. You can pick up  good quality Marry Gillick (first portrait QE2) for very reasonable prices I feel these are under rated at the moment. 

If you can “stack” with semi-numismatic gold with no or little premium over the bullion price then you can’t go wrong. 
 

Cheers 

D 

[Isitreal]

A lot of mine are grade C from Chards, and are in fantastic condition and usually come through my letter box within 3 days. I also have a few other sovs from other companies which aren't as good.  

[pricha]

You say you're not bothered about dent and scratches but you'll have a job selling them when the time comes other than to dealers for quite a bit below the spot price.  If you want more options when you wish to sell i'd go for the best condition you can afford. 

[BiigT]

5 hours ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

I like collecting older sovereigns and buy the best condition as close to the sovereign bullion price I can.  The older sovereigns with  silver in the alloy are far more attractive than the modern bullion sovereigns IMO. You can pick up  good quality Marry Gillick (first portrait QE2) for very reasonable prices I feel these are under rated at the moment. 

If you can “stack” with semi-numismatic gold with no or little premium over the bullion price then you can’t go wrong. 
 

Cheers 

D 

Out of interest, why do you feel the MG portrait is underrated? I've seen them for around £344 but I personally prefer young Victoria shield due to the different variations. I'm starting to get a bit more into the numismatic side and think I'd prefer to pay ~£1k for an anniversary sov that has good potential to increase in value. 

[sixgun]

Why not give Chards or whoever a call. Tell them what you are looking for.
Ask if they have grade C in stock there and then - ask if you place an order right there and then, do they have stock to fill an order of 5 sovs?

If the answer is we have plenty in stock right now, then you know where you stand. 

There was a member who placed an order with Chards. The member had to wait - a lot longer than he liked. He posted a thread. There were a lot of opinions.
Personally i side with Lawrence Chard here. i don't buy with money i need and i don't sell. So if i have to wait a month, 3 months, 6 months, a year - as long as i have locked in the price and i trust the dealer then there isn't a problem for me. It turns out to be a nice surprise in a few months time. 

As mentioned here, a member has got what they consider nice coins in the grade C category from Chard.
As also mentioned here another member suggests you will have more of a problem selling a lower grade coin. This is true.

Personally i would go for better coins but at the same time i have got some really nice coins in what one might call the lucky dip section.
Always, always think about the time you would sell the coins before you buy. If you are going to be disappointed with a coin it will most likely be when it comes to sell it. Disappointed you had to sell it or disappointed you can't sell it for what you had hoped to.
 

 

[GoldDiggerDave]

9 hours ago, BiigT said:

Out of interest, why do you feel the MG portrait is underrated? I've seen them for around £344 but I personally prefer young Victoria shield due to the different variations. I'm starting to get a bit more into the numismatic side and think I'd prefer to pay ~£1k for an anniversary sov that has good potential to increase in value. 

I think they are very attractive and also very cheap for what they are, you can pick up an UNC Gillick for around the price of a new 2021 sovereign, don't mind paying a few quid more.  Hands down the Gillick blows the new sovereigns completely away.  The alloy that's it's made from has a lovely sheen/patina and tones with a lovely reddish colour, some testing has shown the sovereigns of this era to contain 1 part silver and I think this is what give the sovereign its beautiful finish.   Also I do appreciate the craftsmanship that's gone into the die work on the older Sovereigns as a skilled person has actually crafted the die.  The new Sovereign dies are just laser cut 12 at a time in a machine for 4 hours this is why they are in low relief.  On the reverse where the sword passes over the horse looks like it's been badly photoshopped and highlights the limitations of this new die making process in my opinion. 

Collecting for the bullion price v's numismatic can be debated endlessly and ultimately the choice of the buyer, I do have many beautiful Victoria young heads.  I split my sovereign collection into 2 groups.  Numismatic for the gems and semi-numismatic for the bullion/investment and enjoying really great coins for the best value possible I call it "Bonus Bullion".  If you can save/invest money and enjoy doing it at the same time making a hobby from it then it's like getting paid to play golf or go cycling.   

 

Happy to talk 

 

Dave

 

 

[BiigT]

Hi Dave, That's a grand reply, thanks for taking the time to explain. I had considered that new dies were lazer engraved, but I didn't appreciate the difference in end quality.  

[Bars]

7 hours ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

I think they are very attractive and also very cheap for what they are, you can pick up an UNC Gillick for around the price of a new 2021 sovereign, don't mind paying a few quid more.  Hands down the Gillick blows the new sovereigns completely away.  The alloy that's it's made from has a lovely sheen/patina and tones with a lovely reddish colour, some testing has shown the sovereigns of this era to contain 1 part silver and I think this is what give the sovereign its beautiful finish.   Also I do appreciate the craftsmanship that's gone into the die work on the older Sovereigns as a skilled person has actually crafted the die.  The new Sovereign dies are just laser cut 12 at a time in a machine for 4 hours this is why they are in low relief.  On the reverse where the sword passes over the horse looks like it's been badly photoshopped and highlights the limitations of this new die making process in my opinion. 

Collecting for the bullion price v's numismatic can be debated endlessly and ultimately the choice of the buyer, I do have many beautiful Victoria young heads.  I split my sovereign collection into 2 groups.  Numismatic for the gems and semi-numismatic for the bullion/investment and enjoying really great coins for the best value possible I call it "Bonus Bullion".  If you can save/invest money and enjoy doing it at the same time making a hobby from it then it's like getting paid to play golf or go cycling.   

 

Happy to talk 

 

Dave

 

 

He was on that Juice back in the day. 

Ripped

[GoldDiggerDave]

2 hours ago, Bars said:

He was on that Juice back in the day. 

Ripped

I’ve often thought was George so confident he could take on the Dragon naked only wearing his helmet and waving his sword around………or was he on the job with the wenches of Silene when the dragon turned up!

Edited May 13, 2021 by GoldDiggerDave
Typo

[Allgoldcoins]

My advice to anyone who simply wants to hold gold at the cheapest possible premium, is to buy Krugerrands. If you are buying sovereigns and want the best value for money, then I suggest you buy good grade sovereigns that would grade MS ?? on the Sheldon Scale. Yes that means quite a hefty premium compared to low grade coins, but the bonus is that in my experience a good (Victoria / Ed / Geo) sovereign will hold its numismatic value even when gold itself drops. 

I think you have to be careful buying neither at rates close to BV or close to MS, a VF (AU58) 1911 London Sovereign will only ever be worth BV, but a nice MS-64 should hold its value. 

I know this thread is about sovereigns, but just to mention, the Chinese Panda and now the BU Queens Beasts, are well worth the extra premiums.  

Edited May 13, 2021 by Allgoldcoins

[JohnyBGold]

23 hours ago, Allgoldcoins said:

My advice to anyone who simply wants to hold gold at the cheapest possible premium, is to buy Krugerrands. If you are buying sovereigns and want the best value for money, then I suggest you buy good grade sovereigns that would grade MS ?? on the Sheldon Scale. Yes that means quite a hefty premium compared to low grade coins, but the bonus is that in my experience a good (Victoria / Ed / Geo) sovereign will hold its numismatic value even when gold itself drops. 

I think you have to be careful buying neither at rates close to BV or close to MS, a VF (AU58) 1911 London Sovereign will only ever be worth BV, but a nice MS-64 should hold its value. 

I know this thread is about sovereigns, but just to mention, the Chinese Panda and now the BU Queens Beasts, are well worth the extra premiums.  

What makes those CP and BU QB well worth the extra premiums? I'm just trying to understand the reason behind it for learning purposes.

[LawrenceChard]

On 03/04/2021 at 17:21, Robda1986 said:

Depends how long you wanna wait for generic bullion I'd pay the extra and find a company that have them in stock as mentioned above there are alot nicer companies to deal with bullion by post, Atkinson, ats but I won't touch the company your thinking about with a barge poll heck I'd rather take my chance with ebay 

@Robda1986 Your answer to @papabearxxx is ill-considered and plain wrong on a number of points:

If you are going to post a comment about a fellow TSF member, particularly if it is critical, it would be good practice, and courteous, to tag them in to the post.

There is nothing wrong with expressing an opinion about paying more to buy coins which are in stock. This is a matter of personal choice and preference. At least we offer a choice. As you know, our website is perfectly clear, up-front, and transparent. We clearly state whether coins are "In Stock" or "Orderable". We also offer "Pre-Orderable" for new products where we are waiting for release or delivery, or to be notified when the item is back in stock.

I strongly disagree that there are "alot (sic) nicer companies to deal with". Most of our customers think we are very nice to deal with. You then mention three UK dealers by name. Although I agree that ATS are nice to deal with, I disagree with you about the other two. If you really want to know some of the reasons why, I could tell you.

Your comments "I won't touch the company your (sic) thinking about with a barge poll (sic)" and "heck I'd rather take my chance with ebay" are offensive, misleading, and almost certainly defamatory. You clearly intend to cause the O.P. and other readers to think badly about our company, and to cause us reputational damage and loss. Your words carry an innuendo or implication that we are dishonest, unethical, bad, nasty, or that there is some other good reason to avoid us. Your comparison with ebay is odious. While there are some decent sellers and buyers on ebay, the site is rife with crooks, fraudsters, dodgy dealers, misleading descriptions, fakes, and the company itself appears to tolerate all of these, while publishing propaganda to the contrary.

If you had included a link to the 11 page thread "Do i cut my losses?" with 259 replies, which you started in February this year, readers could form their own opinion about my company, and also about you.

For convenience, I include a link here: 

Although you did not name us in you original post, I would have preferred it if you had done so. Others members asked questions, and it became obvious to many who you were referring to. My usual advice is to provide as much information as possible, and if you think someone is doing something bad, then have the courage to name and shame them as appropriate.

I would encourage anyone with time to spare, to read the thread, however I would like to make the following observations, some of which are addressed in the thread, others not:

In your original post, you were not completely truthful or honest when mentioning our e-mail. Perhaps you would care to publish it so readers can see for themselves.

You competely skip over and omit the fact that before you could proceed with the order, you were presented with a big, unmissable pop-up banner, which informed you that the coins were not in stock, and there could be an indefinite delay. We made it impossible to proceed with the deal unless you positively selected one of the choices. you never explained why you ignored the clear warning on the banner, and elected to proceed with the deal. There were also two further alerts before you could complete checkout and make payment. We do this because we do not want anyone deciding to buy from us unless they fully understand and accept the situation, we would prefer they bought elsewhere. 

As stated above, you were not completely honest when mentioning our e-mail.

We also make it clear that bullion deals are not subject to unilateral cancellation. This is standard practice. If this was not so, nobody in their right mind would offer competitive prices on any bullion products or similar purchases.

Most sensible, reasonable, ethical people realise and understand this. You however, presumably because gold prices had dropped slightly, decided you wanted to abort the transaction, renege on our agreement, and agitate for a refund. You also wrote about trying to get a chargeback on your card payment. This is greedy, opportunistic, and unethical behaviour. If gold prices had increased meanwhile, you would quite rightly be annoyed and disappointed if we had unilaterally sought to annul the contract between us. What is right for one party to the transaction is right for the other party. From experience, we are aware that there are a small minority of people with very low ethical standards, who will try to renegotiate deals, dishonestly request chargebacks, abuse social media, including forums like this, leave unfair and unwarranted negative feedback and low scores on review sites, possibly in an attempt to blackmail traders into refunds, compensation, or simply to spite them even though the traders may be blameless, and the real villains are the dishonest and unethical customers.

I believe you eventually sold the coins back to us, which in my opinion was not the most sensible choice. I think you said you bought some from elsewhere, BbP?, who had them in stock. You did not specify what type, date or grade you bought, and what price/premium you paid. It is almost certain that you would have been better off sticking with the original deal. I can tell you that you would have received your coins a month or two ago.

You have the advantage that you use a semi-anonymous avatar, so you can easily post unfair comments without much risk. This anonymity is largely behind much of the cowardly bullying and trolling which occurs on social media. You will notice that I post here, as on other sites, using my own name.

I could demand that you remove your comment, together with any other similar defamatory comments you have made, from this site and elsewhere. As I have quoted and included your response to this thread, this would only be partially effective. I therefore srongly suggest that you add an edit to your original response admitting that you were out-of-order, retracting your insinuations, and apologising for your slurs against Chards. If you do so, it may help to demonstrate that you are not totally irresponsible. If you choose not to do so, everyone can draw their own conclusions.

Meanwhile, I reserve all our rights against you in respect of the defamation.

I have tagged @ChrisSilver in to this post, as I believe he will not wish to see his site used for slanging matches, and quite rightly so, however I believe that it is only right that I take this opportunity to defend our company's , and my own, reputation, against inaccurate comments aimed at causing reputational damage.

 

[Allgoldcoins]

23 hours ago, JohnyBGold said:

What makes those CP and BU QB well worth the extra premiums? I'm just trying to understand the reason behind it for learning purposes.

I think the answer is the same as it is for buying any coin as investment/collecting, if there are millions of these things and if they are all the same such as a krugerrand. where the design stays the same and there are no particular rare years, then it has no collector value at all, its just a piece of bullion. The same is true of the Britannia's and Eagles, nothing much changes, however the Royal Mint have hit upon the idea of producing limited edition bullion coins. This means with the QB you have now 11 different designs to collect, you can't just go to the mint and buy any one you like as they have sold out of most of them, hence the secondary market and people prepared to pay just a little more for say The Lion of England etc to complete the rather nice set.

The situation with the CP's is that they feature a cuddly Panda, the design changes each year and they appear as proof like, again these features make them collectable as well as just a bullion coin. You will struggle to find every year back to the 80's. so again the prices go up.