2021 Silver Britannias

[BDTH]

Hello everyone,

Just thought I would start a topic that puzzled me regarding 2021 silver Britannias

Some background, I started taking an interest in gold, silver and bitcoin as alternatives to fiat currency savings a few years ago (I was running a small business and had some cash reserves)

One way or another I became aware of Mike Maloney’s YouTube channel, and purchased and read his book Investing in Gold and Silver

What I picked up was (in his opinion) for investment purposes go for bog standard bullion, in times of crisis you have the 999 silver scrap value and may not find a buyer for your super rare numanistic coin

Somehow or other (I think from The Bitcoin Pub) I also picked up on the Capital Gains Tax-free nature of UK bullion

I then became aware of @BackyardBullion youtube channel and watched him go Estonia to pick up some silver from European Mint and how you could (before Brexit)  legitimately avoid UK 20% VAT on silver, which was news to me

So I purchased some tubes of 2020 Britannias from Goldsilver.BE, and now, due to a change in circumstances, and selling some

To get back to the title of this thread, is there something special about with 2021 Britannias? The security feature, on a ~£25 + VAT coin?

To me a 999 Britannia is a 999 Britannia, you get the silver value, you can easily compare one to another, you get the CGT advantages

There maybe a temporary “shortage” of the current years bullion coin for a week or two until Royal Mint respond and knock out another batch, is that worth paying a premium for?

Interested in TSF views

[Bigmarc]

25 minutes ago, BDTH said:

Hello everyone,

Just thought I would start a topic that puzzled me regarding 2021 silver Britannias

Some background, I started taking an interest in gold, silver and bitcoin as alternatives to fiat currency savings a few years ago (I was running a small business and had some cash reserves)

One way or another I became aware of Mike Maloney’s YouTube channel, and purchased and read his book Investing in Gold and Silver

What I picked up was (in his opinion) for investment purposes go for bog standard bullion, in times of crisis you have the 999 silver scrap value and may not find a buyer for your super rare numanistic coin

Somehow or other (I think from The Bitcoin Pub) I also picked up on the Capital Gains Tax-free nature of UK bullion

I then became aware of @BackyardBullion youtube channel and watched him go Estonia to pick up some silver from European Mint and how you could (before Brexit)  legitimately avoid UK 20% VAT on silver, which was news to me

So I purchased some tubes of 2020 Britannias from Goldsilver.BE, and now, due to a change in circumstances, and selling some

To get back to the title of this thread, is there something special about with 2021 Britannias? The security feature, on a ~£25 + VAT coin?

To me a 999 Britannia is a 999 Britannia, you get the silver value, you can easily compare one to another, you get the CGT advantages

There maybe a temporary “shortage” of the current years bullion coin for a week or two until Royal Mint respond and knock out another batch, is that worth paying a premium for?

Interested in TSF views

If you look on eBay bars are going for way more than 999 coins. They are both going for way more than sterling. Sterling is low grade and trades at spot. If you want to buy bullion grade then their is a premium. All depends of your exit strategy.

One YouTube (investment) channel is much the same as the other in my opinion, all trying to push one product. 

I should imagine the security features and CGT is all about trying to cater for a larger audience. It doesn't really matter to this already established.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I'm even more perplexed as to why earlier silver Britannias seem to be commanding premium price over 2021, not even special editions either.

[BDTH]

I guess it is a tiny market in the scheme of things and so will move about with short term supply/demand

for the odd coin some folk like a date run, but for multiples I can’t see why the date is relevant, providing they are 999 and not earlier lower purity

[BDTH]

5 hours ago, Bigmarc said:

If you look on eBay bars are going for way more than 999 coins. They are both going for way more than sterling. Sterling is low grade and trades at spot. If you want to buy bullion grade then their is a premium. All depends of your exit strategy.

One YouTube (investment) channel is much the same as the other in my opinion, all trying to push one product. 

I should imagine the security features and CGT is all about trying to cater for a larger audience. It doesn't really matter to this already established.

 

Is spot price for sterling/925? I assumed [that the spot price] was for 999 as I thought that was the useful industrial grade for electronics, solar panels etc and what I assumed the copper and aluminium refiners refine to from ore [as a by-product of their main purpose], but I aint no expert by any means...

[Rll1288]

925 just means the silver content within an item and there is a calculation to work out the value of the silver within that item based on Silver spot. Spot is the price for Silver not 925 silver

[Arganto]

The spot price is the paper market price for pure silver which is supposed to reflect the price of physical silver. The silver within a compound is what is valued, so if you have an .800 pure Canadian dollar for instance technically you work out the full weight of the coin (23.3 grams in this case) and multiply it by the purity, so 23.3x.8 This will give you the pure silver content which you can check against the silver spot price.

It's not as simple as that though, as even if you take the wonky nature of the paper market out of the equation there's processes involved in refining compound metals to get the silver out. Have a look at a dealer's buy back rates for silver "scrap" and you'll see they get progressively lower the as purity goes down to factor this in.

The older Britannia's are garnering something approaching numismatic value, they were struck in .985 silver and are seen as collectible/desirable.

The silver bullion market is nuanced, especially now. Supply issues are still prevalent and may get worse which is a big factor. There's also the belief that the paper market price is not a true reflection of the physical price. Whether correct or not the notion has helped to drive up premiums.

There's a bunch more to consider. Value things as you feel they are worth/what is fair or even to compete with what's out there. It will sell if like minds abound. A good deal will sell more quickly than a super high premium item, until someone thinks otherwise 😁 

*It's worth noting that just because a coin is not .999 doesn't mean it won't trade with a premium. Those Canadian Dollars for instance (60's era) sell for spot to north of 20% over spot. More for super high grade or earlier coins. 

As for the 2021 Britannias I think it's because Britannias tend to carry a slightly higher premium these days anyway, plus people 'must' have the new dates I guess. The security features are interesting, but I suppose if they've developed them for the gold rounds they may as well transfer that to the silver. I doubt it has cost them more to do so, but maybe someone more clued in can add to that.

[Bigmarc]

2 hours ago, BDTH said:

Is spot price for sterling/925? I assumed it was 999 as I thought that was the useful industrial grade for electronics, solar panels etc and what I assumed the copper and aluminium refines extract from ore, but I aint no expert by any means...

As others are saying, spot price is a guide for the actual silver content. Personally I have a little of everything in my stack. I do like the low grade pieces like the pre 1920 coins and pre 1947, it gives me a opportunity to play the spot game (the price is pretty much set). Ironically the price is not really governed by the scrap content but the demand for industrial use, most industry require high purity for there manufacturing process. I wonder if they have to pay a premium. 

To clarify I am no expert either, just like shiny things 

[Jeffers46]

4 hours ago, RustyShackleford said:

I'm even more perplexed as to why earlier silver Britannias seem to be commanding premium price over 2021, not even special editions either.

Could it be the Una effect... Any Britannia that is linked to Una and the lion has done very well in the past year.  Some of the editions had an Una theme.

[Rll1288]

1 hour ago, Bigmarc said:

As others are saying, spot price is a guide for the actual silver content. Personally I have a little of everything in my stack. I do like the low grade pieces like the pre 1920 coins and pre 1947, it gives me a opportunity to play the spot game (the price is pretty much set). Ironically the price is not really governed by the scrap content but the demand for industrial use, most industry require high purity for there manufacturing process. I wonder if they have to pay a premium. 

To clarify I am no expert either, just like shiny things 

Agree I have loads of "junk" Silver and will continue to stack that as well as the bullion stuff... and agree silver is "My Precious....!" 🙂

[BDTH]

4 hours ago, Rll1288 said:

925 just means the silver content within an item and there is a calculation to work out the value of the silver within that item based on Silver spot. Spot is the price for Silver not 925 silver

yes, so for anything less than 999, for the major demand wanting 999 (e.g. electronics manufacture, including electric vehicles for example) there is a cost to refine it, and I suppose that is part of the calculation

I guess the simple fact is that a buyer will use whatever calculation they can get away with to drive to the price down when buying, while doing the exact opposite when selling

[Rll1288]

3 minutes ago, BDTH said:

yes, so for anything less that 999, for the major demand wanting 999 (e.g. electronics manufacture, including electric vehicles for example) there is a cost to refine it, and I suppose that is part of the calculation

I guess the simple fact is that a buyer will use whatever calculation they can get away with to drive to the price down when buying, while doing the exact opposite when selling

I'm cynical.. I believe the whole reason why spot is low at the moment for silver is precisely because the manufacturing lobby do not want it high and will artificially keep it low due to their need (in greater quantities) over the foreseeable future as creation of paper ETF's is easy.. over leveraging was what caused 2007/2008 ... What would the cost of converting the UK to all electric cars by 2030 if silver were to go to £50.00 per ounce... it could happen but then inflation would be very high

[Bigmarc]

3 hours ago, Rll1288 said:

I'm cynical.. I believe the whole reason why spot is low at the moment for silver is precisely because the manufacturing lobby do not want it high and will artificially keep it low due to their need (in greater quantities) over the foreseeable future as creation of paper ETF's is easy.. over leveraging was what caused 2007/2008 ... What would the cost of converting the UK to all electric cars by 2030 if silver were to go to £50.00 per ounce... it could happen but then inflation would be very high

Why does everyone think silver is priced low? This has only come to light to me since joining the forum. I understand it's a insurance policy against the fiat, I understand the highs and lows of the market (sort of) and I understand it's just damn good hobby. When I look at historic charts, this decade silver has risen by 420%. Copper 357%, platinum 110% and gold 545%. Granted I only looked back till 2000 but I needed to guage where we were. 

If there was to be a market correction, wouldn't it need to be for platinum or dare I say it gold to come down?

 

[BDTH]

I would be interested to know peoples thoughts on this, from my patchy knowledge far the biggest demand for silver is industrial, mostly as an electrical conductor, so the demand is likely to increase significantly the future, but wouldn't mining and recycling then respond once the price rises enough (granted that would take a little while)

I have also heard these theories about short squeezes etc, but wouldn't those be very short term?

On the other hand could silver do really well because it is a useful commodity as a metal, as well as being very collectable, and with the fiat money-printers going crazy, perhaps it could prove to be a great store of value...

 

[Rll1288]

34 minutes ago, Bigmarc said:

Why does everyone think silver is priced low? This has only come to light to me since joining the forum. I understand it's a insurance policy against the fiat, I understand the highs and lows of the market (sort of) and I understand it's just damn good hobby. When I look at historic charts, this decade silver has risen by 420%. Copper 357%, platinum 110% and gold 545%. Granted I only looked back till 2000 but I needed to guage where we were. 

If there was to be a market correction, wouldn't it need to be for platinum or dare I say it gold to come down?

 

Its priced low when you look at it against the Fiat currencies... if it were to find its own level it would be higher, in my opinion. Its a commodity but we have more traded in the paper silver than in the physical. So when you see demand for the physical with prices (premiums) probably 20 to 25% higher then it shows that its artificially kept lower then it should be.. in my opinion and does not constitute financial advise.. hahahahah

[Bigmarc]

2 hours ago, Bigmarc said:

Why does everyone think silver is priced low? This has only come to light to me since joining the forum. I understand it's a insurance policy against the fiat, I understand the highs and lows of the market (sort of) and I understand it's just damn good hobby. When I look at historic charts, this decade silver has risen by 420%. Copper 357%, platinum 110% and gold 545%. Granted I only looked back till 2000 but I needed to guage where we were. 

If there was to be a market correction, wouldn't it need to be for platinum or dare I say it gold to come down?

 

Hello I know I am quoting my own words, but after thinking about it some more I decided to look back a little further. My mistake was only going back 23 years.

This time I looked back 100 years!

In march 1921 the price of silver was 9 dollars. Now it's 25 dollars. 173% rise. Gold 483% rise. Copper in 45 years  1233% rise.

So basically I am holding my hands up, I was talking out of my backside and the silver market has some serious shinanigans going on.

 

 

[Foster88]

4 hours ago, Bigmarc said:

Hello I know I am quoting my own words, but after thinking about it some more I decided to look back a little further. My mistake was only going back 23 years.

This time I looked back 100 years!

In march 1921 the price of silver was 9 dollars. Now it's 25 dollars. 173% rise. Gold 483% rise. Copper in 45 years  1233% rise.

So basically I am holding my hands up, I was talking out of my backside and the silver market has some serious shinanigans going on.

 

 

Factor in the rate of inflation and it will make even less sense or more sense, whichever way you look at it.

This is quite interesting.

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator

[Bimetallic]

1 hour ago, Foster88 said:

Factor in the rate of inflation and it will make even less sense or more sense, whichever way you look at it.

This is quite interesting.

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator

His numbers were inflation adjusted. Silver used to be less than a dollar an ounce in unadjusted dollars. It's not undervalued. It's just not as valuable as some people wish it was.

[Bimetallic]

Note that Britannia silver is 958 fine, not 985 as someone said above.

Silver spot price stipulates 999 fine silver. Well, at least that's what COMEX's silver contact stipulates: https://www.cmegroup.com/trading/metals/precious/silver_contract_specifications.html

Note that "silver spot price" is an interesting thing, abstraction, metric. I posted last year asking where people were getting their spot price, and I don't think anyone actually knew. I didn't mean which website – I meant which market, like where exactly, whose spot price were they using. Even the owner of this site didn't know where his spot price feed was actually coming from, which market.

Spot price has no meaning without a market. It doesn't exist outside of a market. COMEX is probably the modal source of spot price. London might have something, maybe LBMA. Their silver specification also requires at least 999.0 fineness.

When people here say "physical" silver, what they really mean is retail. Industrial is certainly physical, but they're only talking about retail, and they severely overestimate the significance of the retail silver bullion market and the influence it should have on the silver price. Almost no one on Earth buys silver bullion, so it's a very small market.

Jewelry is probably bigger, and that's where Sterling comes into play more. Contrary to some of the comments above, buyers of Sterling silver don't necessarily have to refine it into 999, especially if they're in the jewelry business. They would just keep it as Sterling, since pure silver is seen as too soft for jewelry. A lot of the silver inputs they buy are actually Sterling, like the silver shot, casting grain, wire, rod, etc. There are also some new and improved alloys used in jewelry circles, like Argentium silver, which comes in 940 and 960 fineness, and includes alloying metals other than just copper, like germanium. That stuff is great – it doesn't tarnish or get firescale, and it has high hardness. I wish they'd make bullion out of it.

[BDTH]

“Britannia Silver” (958) as a grade of silver should not be confused with silver Britannia coins

All silver Britannia coins 2013-2021 are 999

I can assure you that all the Britannias I have ever had, and all the Britannias I have ever sold, are 999

 

[Arganto]

4 hours ago, Bimetallic said:

Note that Britannia silver is 958 fine, not 985 as someone said above.

 

Ah ha you spotted my deliberate, ahem, typo! You win today's prize of...

A pineapple! 🎉🎉🎉😜

[Arganto]

Also, there's nothing inferior with Britannia Silver. In fact the earlier coins resisted wear a lot better, whether due to the harder compound or tighter quality control who knows. My eldest was born 2012 so she's got a last of the line .958 Brit as a birthday coin.

Yes they would have to be refined to be reused, but I'm not sure many bullion investment Britannias end up being used in industry. They might if silver goes to the moon and there's a shortage worldwide mind you 🤣

[BDTH]

yeah my understanding is that 999 is not good for coins that are actually going to be handled as coins as it is too soft, hence 925/sterling silver (hence £ pound sterling originally being literally a pound of 925ish silver unless I am very much mistaken) and being a popular silver coin alloy for hundreds of years, “Sterling” still being synonymous with GBP

but now the big demand for physical silver is likely to be for solar photovoltaic cells, electric vehicles and other electronics

it is my understanding that near pure silver is what manufacturers need, so as a store of value that is worth bearing in mind, regardless of whether or not a specific coin ever gets melted down for some Tesla electronics (paid for it Bitcoin natch 😃)

[Bigmarc]

6 hours ago, Bimetallic said:

His numbers were inflation adjusted. Silver used to be less than a dollar an ounce in unadjusted dollars. It's not undervalued. It's just not as valuable as some people wish it was.

Yes if you were to follow the true gold raise over the last hundred years the the true value of silver should be around 43 dollar per Oz. I am not saying this as gospel, I've just spent a evening on the marotrends website. 

I just need a little more of a argument than the silver markets are corrupt and silver will shoot to the moon. How far away is the moon? Anyone who is investing must have some target.

[BDTH]

agree, the Mike Maloneys and Max Kaisers get a bit hyperbolic IMO

Silver could “go to the moon”, but what is actually a realistic target? 

Comedian/author/Goldbug Dominic Frisby (17million f***-offs) recently did a youtube post remarking that silver “always disappoints”, maybe I just got lucky with timing but I have been able to take some profit from Ag