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Dangers of buying a cleaned coin!


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With so many topics about cleaning  / removing tarnishing on coins  on the forum recently there must be some danger to these being sold on the forum too! 

I've  got the usual suspects in my stack too. Milk spots on RCM stuff, scuffs scratches and milk on RM stuff  but i certainly wouldn't be selling any of it on the forum. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 06/04/2021 at 10:02, TutoredSoup232 said:

Would you buy them if the seller sold at spot/bullion/described them as cleaned?

Absolutely. If the price (and listing) reflects the fact that it's Bullion and/or cleaned, that's fine. It does not affect the intrinsic value of the metal. 

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Bullion is bullion and nothing else.
I would rather have a shiny new looking silver bullion coin over something that looks as if it's been in a house fire.
There are also milk stains, not spots, that are seriously ugly looking like the coin has been dipped in a cloudy liquid that dried milky.
What I don't like however are coins where they have been rubbed or polished poorly and showing lots of fine scratches.
Removing milk spots and milk stains is impossible without resorting to mechanical means so the surface of the coin will be affected.
Professional polishing of shiny coins is possible but not on many that have a matt / silk finish as the surface has been blasted rather than conventionally polished.
A normal polishing process on dull surfaces would change the surface entirely and would be easily noticed.

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8 hours ago, Pete said:

Bullion is bullion and nothing else.
I would rather have a shiny new looking silver bullion coin over something that looks as if it's been in a house fire.
There are also milk stains, not spots, that are seriously ugly looking like the coin has been dipped in a cloudy liquid that dried milky.
What I don't like however are coins where they have been rubbed or polished poorly and showing lots of fine scratches.
Removing milk spots and milk stains is impossible without resorting to mechanical means so the surface of the coin will be affected.
Professional polishing of shiny coins is possible but not on many that have a matt / silk finish as the surface has been blasted rather than conventionally polished.
A normal polishing process on dull surfaces would change the surface entirely and would be easily noticed.

So you'd be happy spending £30+ on a milk spotted coin? Or would you expect a hefty discount for them? 

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On 28/03/2021 at 09:33, MickB said:

I use this solution to clean them, does the job 👍

IMG_20210328_091742.jpg

Does this get rid of milk spots too? I have encountered the dreaded milk spot on my coins and I'm contemplating selling them or trying a non abrasive cleaning method 

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9 hours ago, Alex944 said:

Absolutely. If the price (and listing) reflects the fact that it's Bullion and/or cleaned, that's fine. It does not affect the intrinsic value of the metal. 

What would be a reasonable % over spot for damaged/spotted coins?

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2 hours ago, TutoredSoup232 said:

What would be a reasonable % over spot for damaged/spotted coins?

Damaged and spotted are different.
If a pristine bullion silver coin is priced around £30-32 today then I would expect the same coin with spots to sell for £28 and a damaged coin meaning visibly scratched or dinged for about £26. A dealer would likely buy at spot £18.50 but maybe only £17 for coins that would fall into a much lower grade if resold. I am guessing the last part here.

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1 hour ago, Pete said:

Damaged and spotted are different.
If a pristine bullion silver coin is priced around £30-32 today then I would expect the same coin with spots to sell for £28 and a damaged coin meaning visibly scratched or dinged for about £26. A dealer would likely buy at spot £18.50 but maybe only £17 for coins that would fall into a much lower grade if resold. I am guessing the last part here.

Seems reasonable, I might have to cut my losses and offload mine then!

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13 hours ago, TutoredSoup232 said:

Does this get rid of milk spots too? I have encountered the dreaded milk spot on my coins and I'm contemplating selling them or trying a non abrasive cleaning method 

It clears up mine just fine. I had a few in a tube that spotted over time and they came up ok.

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If the milk staining is bad and has been cleaned off well there's no difference between a coin that's had the usual handling/storage damage that is common in full price coins. There is a big difference between a piece of bullion silver with a market premium attached and a coin with numismatic value. If someone misleadingly sold a collectible as mint that had been cleaned that's bad form, if they sold a bullion coin that had been cleaned months/years ago and had been mixed into their stack with no visible differences compared to the others I'm not sure it's the same thing at all. .

.999 silver should have nothing else in it bar trace elements, so the worst cleaning would do is mark, scratch or have staining from polish residue etc. if not rinsed well. The buyer would be able to see these marks and make a decision as to whether the item is worth the asking price.

I've recently cleaned six Britannias that had awful milk stains, they came up wonderfully and have less fine scratches than when I started (there's detail in a thread originally started by Pete). Side by side to minty fresh examples I have there's no discernible difference apart from some residual milking in the reeding of a couple that was difficult to shift. I have kept these coins separate from the rest of my items to keep an eye on them and I've labelled them as cleaned for later comparison (to see if the milk stains came back). In the very unlikely event I sell on TSF I would mention the process used but due to their condition I doubt many would mind paying a decent rate for them.

I think most if not all on TSF are up front and honest folk. A decent description or high quality photograph would describe any faults of an item and the buying decision can be made based on evidence. The other thing is if a coin changed hands a few times after cleaning and looked great how could those in the chain know unless specifically told?

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My only issue with cleaning is that I've tried the car polish method but I keep leaving behind fine scratches. They're only visible under a torch light but they're still there.

I guess at the end of the day we need to figure out what "bullion quality" really means and what the premium is for. If the premium is there to cover the design and the general work that went into making the coin vs paper silver then I don't see why anything besides major damage should detract from the price. And then figure out what major damage includes. 

I'm going to try the silver dip as well as I think I need a more "hands off" method for getting rid of milk spots. 

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16 hours ago, TutoredSoup232 said:

Does this get rid of milk spots too? I have encountered the dreaded milk spot on my coins and I'm contemplating selling them or trying a non abrasive cleaning method 

I think the dip shown is Tableau, which is similar to e Z est,

both of these products main ingredients are Thiourea and Sulphuric Acid.

Repeated dipping will destroy your coins, as these take of a very very thin layer of your coin each time used, and if not rinsed properly will keep eating into the surface. 

A lot of older half Crowns or Crowns that look UNC however have a battleship grey appearance have been over dipped.

Having said that the possibility that it will remove the layer with the milk spotting is also something to look into.        

Edited by Wampum
can't spell
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I don't buy the whole "bullion is bullion" mantra - or I would if it was remotely close to the value of the metal, but what's the going rate right for for an ounce of silver? 

I would say all silver coins are collectors pieces at current prices, and unless prices close to spot should be in top condition.

Edited by watchesandwhisky
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2 hours ago, watchesandwhisky said:

I don't buy the whole "bullion is bullion" mantra - or I would if it was remotely close to the value of the metal, but what's the going rate right for for an ounce of silver? 

I would say all silver coins are collectors pieces at current prices, and unless prices close to spot should be in top condition.

I would argue the point that the market (real people who try to source it to sell and those who want to buy it) decides the fiat value of physical metal bullion. I'm not claiming one way or the other that there's a disconnect between the spot price and physical bullion other than the fact that there is no 'set' premium over spot for basic bullion. I understand the argument that there is R&D and manufacturing costs to consider, but the industry itself recognises bullion products; the "bullion" grade sovereign for example was reintroduced to satiate this market specifically. They may be collectible in some instances but outside of proof coins and BU editions they are purely bullion products. Silver 'enjoys' a hefty premium against the representative spot price for many different reasons which can and have filled long threads on TSF and elsewhere, but I'm reasonably certain if an ounce of silver was valued at say £1000, it's unlikely that the premiums would be ~30% as they are now. If everyone stopped demanding silver tomorrow and refused to pay the premiums asked how long would those prices last? Who knows, but it doesn't detract from the fact that there is base line bullion which is different however subtly from limited run designs, BU and proof items. We may not like paying seemingly high premiums for silver when the spot price indicates a certain intrinsic value, especially when we can pay 3-15% for bullion gold, but that doesn't alter the reality of where things are.

However, everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone buys or sells for their own personal reasons. How we view things helps shape our decisions, which brings me back to; you see a thing, you decide if that thing is worth shelling out for, you do or do not buy it. 

Reading that back I sound like a bit of a d*ck, but I assure you the conversation would be more nuanced and jovial over a pint and not in text form 😁

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2 hours ago, watchesandwhisky said:

would say all silver coins are collectors pieces at current prices, and unless prices close to spot should be in top condition.

To an extent I agree, however there's a difference between silver prices and physical silver prices. I think no one is too happy with the high premiums we are seeing nowadays, but in the same respect, loads of people are buying at the moment. From that I derive that the demand is high enough that people are willing to pay these prices to own their silver physically. I currently tend to stay away from bullion pieces and purchase either gold or silver pieces that already carry a premium, as they haven't risen as much relatively to bullion coins. About 18 months ago I could buy Brits / Krugs for 17-19 EUR per coin, now they are 26,50 EUR at the very least. However, premium coins like panda's and Kooks have risen maybe 10-20% as against 30-50% for the bullion coins.

If you believe that silver has a high potential to gain but don't fancy paying those premiums, you can always invest into paper silver via a broker. commission %'s are between 1 and 3% on the silver spot price which is a lot more attractive than the current 20-40% over spot for physical silver. Then again, you will have numbers on your screen rather than coins/bars in your possession.

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16 minutes ago, Alex944 said:

To an extent I agree, however there's a difference between silver prices and physical silver prices. I think no one is too happy with the high premiums we are seeing nowadays, but in the same respect, loads of people are buying at the moment. From that I derive that the demand is high enough that people are willing to pay these prices to own their silver physically. I currently tend to stay away from bullion pieces and purchase either gold or silver pieces that already carry a premium, as they haven't risen as much relatively to bullion coins. About 18 months ago I could buy Brits / Krugs for 17-19 EUR per coin, now they are 26,50 EUR at the very least. However, premium coins like panda's and Kooks have risen maybe 10-20% as against 30-50% for the bullion coins.

If you believe that silver has a high potential to gain but don't fancy paying those premiums, you can always invest into paper silver via a broker. commission %'s are between 1 and 3% on the silver spot price which is a lot more attractive than the current 20-40% over spot for physical silver. Then again, you will have numbers on your screen rather than coins/bars in your possession.

How do you feel about gold 1/20oz lunar coins and Australian 1/10oz nuggets? 

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2 hours ago, TutoredSoup232 said:

How do you feel about gold 1/20oz lunar coins and Australian 1/10oz nuggets? 

1/20oz (or even the phillie 1/25oz) is just a tad too small in my opinion. I try to keep my gold around sov's  or 1/4oz's and up, though I have considered adding a couple of half sovs and 1/10oz Krugs.

For premium coins like lunar or Australian nuggets, I'd definitely want a bit more body to the coin so you can decently appreciate the design. Maybe I just have poor eyesight, a friend of mine has a 1g panda coin and I couldn't really see the details.

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5 hours ago, TutoredSoup232 said:

do you happen to have any before and after shots of your dipped coins? 

No, I never took any shots at the time. I will if I come across anymore that need cleaning. 

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