Grading is it becoming irrelevant?

[Rll1288]

Ok, the reason for the question is... From what I can see of the description for a PF70 versus a PF69 the actual difference is small i.e. the 69 is almost, but not quite good for the top grade. However, the price differential between the two can be significant.

As more and more people look to grade their coins will we get to a point where its almost not worth it and hat maybe in a few years an ungraded, in its original packaging and as it was purchased item may be more sort after? From the small amount of time I have been  stacking/investing in PM's I have seen a huge increase in the euphoria over grading to a point where sending items to NGC can take months to get back and by that time the want or need has subsided a little. Just a small question but I am sure a lot of other unanswered ones could follow

[SidS]

I was a coin collector for years and to be honest I can't tell the difference between an MS63 and an MS64, to say nothing of MS69 to MS70, I truly believe the minute levels of 'accuracy' half the time are very much subjective from one person to the next. I guess in many ways that's because growing up with the British system it was much broader, VF or EF kind of boundaries you had to distinguish between, so more obvious, MS63 and 64 were all bracketed under UNC and sold at the same price!

I long gave up buying coins based on grade, in fact I don't grade coins at all now when I buy them, for what few I occasionally buy, I simply ask myself - does it have the eye appeal that I am looking for?

If I like it I buy it and stuff the grade, cos you know when you come to sell it, a dealer will buy it from you as GF and then sell it on as AVF anyhow!

Edited March 10, 2021 by SidS

[Seasider]

26 minutes ago, SidS said:

a dealer will buy it from you as GF and then sell it on as AVF

Which is precisely why Third Party grading like NGC and PCGS came along in the first place.  To give consistency, remove the subjective nature of dealer's grading and protect the consumer from getting "done".  That's the theory anyway.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Seasider
missing words

[Rll1288]

1 minute ago, Seasider said:

Which is precisely why grading came along in the first place.  To give consistency, remove the subjective nature of dealer's grading and protect the consumer from getting "done".  That's the theory anyway.

Agree. that it should provide a consistency. But it seems to be creating a new issue, a differential between grades where there shouldn't be as big a gap. Is the value of a 70 "X" times more than a 69?

[Seasider]

2 minutes ago, Rll1288 said:

Agree. that it should provide a consistency. But it seems to be creating a new issue, a differential between grades where there shouldn't be as big a gap. Is the value of a 70 "X" times more than a 69?

That is not a problem with grading it is human nature - to want the "best".  Combine that with an auction like the Coin Cabinet and suddenly you see a big differential.

But think about the Three Graces coin which was issued exclusively as PF70.  Is that expensive because of the grade?  Or is it expensive because it is riding on the coat tails of the RM Three Graces?  I would suggest that that is a case where grading may be irrelevant because none of the coins is any better than any other.

[Rll1288]

Yeah agree... I wonder what a PF69 would have commanded as a premium 🙂

[Chorlton]

The main benefit of grading is it keeps my sticky mitts off quality coins in good condition  😀

More seriously it confirms what a coin is and its condition but even then fake graded coins exist so still need to take reasonable precautions buying on the secondary market if not grading yourself.  This does depend on who is doing the grading as Chorlton’s grading gives all coins a PR70.

[SidS]

In my view, based on what I've seen with some US coin series, there isn't consistency.

Certain coins seem to be graded more strictly than others.

For example, just in the series I collected SLQs, the 1916 coins were always graded easier than other coins. I'm not saying it was consciously done this way, but things such as mushy strike and poorer quality control was taken into account (not strictly wear... I know) and as the 1916s were so rare and seldom seen they seemed to come out more favourably whereas the common garden 1917 would be a point or two lower and yet they'd look practically identical to me.

Coins from the 1700s also seemed to grade better than say a Lincoln cent would in identical condition.

Or coins would be marked up for having a 'wonderful rainbow tone' - eye appeal point you might say, to my eyes though most rainbow toned coins look pretty ghastly, like an oil streak on the road. But they were fashionable and it would see the average 1879 MS64 Morgan upgraded to say MS65 for having 'eye appeal' - could there be anything more subjective?

Just my experience from over 20 years on various coin forums.

[Norskgeld]

I always prefer a 69.....

[Rll1288]

Cheaper to get hold of and I believe in a few years time will be just as sort after

[stackerp5]

I'm not really sure, but personally I refrain from buying graded. I've felt like grading before but the costs for me personally were too high and its not all coins that are graded which come back at a favourable grade and grading doesnt always mean price will be higher. In a situations with price growth, premiums tend to lower too so at the moment I am focusing solely on bullion personally. 

However, I still have bought a few limited edition coins that I fancy a lot - but nothing graded though.

[kimchi]

4 hours ago, Norskgeld said:

I always prefer a 69.....

So do the chaps just up the road at MCM, it's why they only sell the 70s

[SilverMike]

My personal opinion is like it or loathe it, grading is the future for british numismatic coins. We are trailing the US market which is years ahead of us, yes its a bigger market but it doesn't have the depth of history and rarity present in British coinage where some of our coins trace their history back to the global dominating british empire and earlier, everyone knows what a sovereign is globally.

Not that long ago you required experience to establish the grade of a coin and so it’s value vs another coin. Coins were kept loose in beautiful cabinets and handled by experts. This limited the market to a small very small, niche group, numismatists and it controlled the price, arguably holding it back.

Grading rewrites the script. Graded coins can now be and are bought by institutions, big investors, banks, pension funds, etc who have absolutely no idea about what they are buying other than it is a global market that is proven and they can now buy from a menu, where the ‘stock’ has fundamentals that can be analysed so a known and understood entry & exit point can be planned. This I believe is why you see the gulf between a 69 and a 70. It has nothing to do with a tiny mark or hairline on the coin, but investors who have no interest in that side want the best of the best as its the most secure end of the market to diversify their portfolio into. 70’s / the highest possible grade is a market in itself.

this trend for 70’s / highest grade available screaming ahead has rippled and we see it in all types of coins and ranges, not that I think these big investors are buying much outside of rare high grade and desirable sovereigns and very special coins (unas, 3graces and the older patterns) but that doesn't matter, the trend and protocol is set and I think its here to stay and high grade rare and / or desirable ‘safe investment’ coins are on an exponential rise with a long way to go. To get a feel for where I think we are heading just watch the next platinum night at heritage and the US (and world coins, its not only the US) easily making high 5 figure and 6 figure sums. Coins that arent anywhere near as rare or as historically important as a lot of  british coins. But what they all have in common is they are all graded and can be ranked.

as our market grows, confidence builds and the highest grades become extremely expensive I think the lower grades will catch up and there will be a difference between them rather than the current attitude being if its not a 70 or maybe 69 its a failure (or whatever is the highest grade known for a given coin vs its lower graded equivalent)

There are plenty of other markets like this which allows for diverse and secure investment portfolios outside of the traditional stock market.

time will tell, but I think british coin collecting will be a very different place in 10years and high end coins in beautiful old mahogany cabinets will be a thing of the past, sadly.

Edited March 11, 2021 by SilverMike

[SidS]

9 hours ago, SilverMike said:

My personal opinion is like it or loathe it, grading is the future for british numismatic coins. We are trailing the US market which is years ahead of us, yes its a bigger market but it doesn't have the depth of history and rarity present in British coinage where some of our coins trace their history back to the global dominating british empire and earlier, everyone knows what a sovereign is globally.

Not that long ago you required experience to establish the grade of a coin and so it’s value vs another coin. Coins were kept loose in beautiful cabinets and handled by experts. This limited the market to a small very small, niche group, numismatists and it controlled the price, arguably holding it back.

Grading rewrites the script. Graded coins can now be and are bought by institutions, big investors, banks, pension funds, etc who have absolutely no idea about what they are buying other than it is a global market that is proven and they can now buy from a menu, where the ‘stock’ has fundamentals that can be analysed so a known and understood entry & exit point can be planned. This I believe is why you see the gulf between a 69 and a 70. It has nothing to do with a tiny mark or hairline on the coin, but investors who have no interest in that side want the best of the best as its the most secure end of the market to diversify their portfolio into. 70’s / the highest possible grade is a market in itself.

this trend for 70’s / highest grade available screaming ahead has rippled and we see it in all types of coins and ranges, not that I think these big investors are buying much outside of rare high grade and desirable sovereigns and very special coins (unas, 3graces and the older patterns) but that doesn't matter, the trend and protocol is set and I think its here to stay and high grade rare and / or desirable ‘safe investment’ coins are on an exponential rise with a long way to go. To get a feel for where I think we are heading just watch the next platinum night at heritage and the US (and world coins, its not only the US) easily making high 5 figure and 6 figure sums. Coins that arent anywhere near as rare or as historically important as a lot of  british coins. But what they all have in common is they are all graded and can be ranked.

as our market grows, confidence builds and the highest grades become extremely expensive I think the lower grades will catch up and there will be a difference between them rather than the current attitude being if its not a 70 or maybe 69 its a failure (or whatever is the highest grade known for a given coin vs its lower graded equivalent)

There are plenty of other markets like this which allows for diverse and secure investment portfolios outside of the traditional stock market.

time will tell, but I think british coin collecting will be a very different place in 10years and high end coins in beautiful old mahogany cabinets will be a thing of the past, sadly.

Sadly, I can't disagree with a single word of this.

I don't think graded coins are a bad thing, which is a position I have moved on by miles since 2002 I can tell you. But, I do think they create artificial values, artificial 'scarcity' and false demand.

[Rll1288]

10 hours ago, SilverMike said:

My personal opinion is like it or loathe it, grading is the future for british numismatic coins. We are trailing the US market which is years ahead of us, yes its a bigger market but it doesn't have the depth of history and rarity present in British coinage where some of our coins trace their history back to the global dominating british empire and earlier, everyone knows what a sovereign is globally.

Not that long ago you required experience to establish the grade of a coin and so it’s value vs another coin. Coins were kept loose in beautiful cabinets and handled by experts. This limited the market to a small very small, niche group, numismatists and it controlled the price, arguably holding it back.

Grading rewrites the script. Graded coins can now be and are bought by institutions, big investors, banks, pension funds, etc who have absolutely no idea about what they are buying other than it is a global market that is proven and they can now buy from a menu, where the ‘stock’ has fundamentals that can be analysed so a known and understood entry & exit point can be planned. This I believe is why you see the gulf between a 69 and a 70. It has nothing to do with a tiny mark or hairline on the coin, but investors who have no interest in that side want the best of the best as its the most secure end of the market to diversify their portfolio into. 70’s / the highest possible grade is a market in itself.

this trend for 70’s / highest grade available screaming ahead has rippled and we see it in all types of coins and ranges, not that I think these big investors are buying much outside of rare high grade and desirable sovereigns and very special coins (unas, 3graces and the older patterns) but that doesn't matter, the trend and protocol is set and I think its here to stay and high grade rare and / or desirable ‘safe investment’ coins are on an exponential rise with a long way to go. To get a feel for where I think we are heading just watch the next platinum night at heritage and the US (and world coins, its not only the US) easily making high 5 figure and 6 figure sums. Coins that arent anywhere near as rare or as historically important as a lot of  british coins. But what they all have in common is they are all graded and can be ranked.

as our market grows, confidence builds and the highest grades become extremely expensive I think the lower grades will catch up and there will be a difference between them rather than the current attitude being if its not a 70 or maybe 69 its a failure (or whatever is the highest grade known for a given coin vs its lower graded equivalent)

There are plenty of other markets like this which allows for diverse and secure investment portfolios outside of the traditional stock market.

time will tell, but I think british coin collecting will be a very different place in 10years and high end coins in beautiful old mahogany cabinets will be a thing of the past, sadly.

I think you hit the nail on the head... it is something that, whether we like or not, is a part of the coin collecting equation. When you look at older coins being graded they are very rarely above a 66/67 so my logic is in the future my 67 coins will become as valuable as the 70's hahaha 🙂

[Gildeon]

18 minutes ago, Rll1288 said:

I think you hit the nail on the head... it is something that, whether we like or not, is a part of the coin collecting equation. When you look at older coins being graded they are very rarely above a 66/67 so my logic is in the future my 67 coins will become as valuable as the 70's hahaha 🙂

I don't think this will be the case, as they would be lots of 70-69 and even 68s already. The reason that older coins get lower grades, is mainly because they are graded years or decades (and even more) after their production. It is much more difficult (or impossible) to be in perfect condition after all this time. And of course mint techniques have been improved, so a modern Perth or RM coin has a higher chance to achieve a 70 than twenty years ago.

As for the price difference, it has to do with supply and demand. If 80% of a new proof get a 70, there wouldn't be much of a difference and the 69 may not even be getting the slab price. But if it is difficult to achieve (combined with a low mintage), it is normal to appreciate a lot, as it is hard to find. Same can happen with MS coins with high mintages (like the bullion Queen's Beasts), where a 70 is pretty difficult to achieve.

[SidS]

19 minutes ago, Gildeon said:

The reason that older coins get lower grades, is mainly because they are graded years or decades (and even more) after their production. It is much more difficult (or impossible) to be in perfect condition after all this time.

There was a time when coins were merely functional items, produced to be used in transactions.

Year on year, coins were produced by mints around the world and distributed into circulation. The coins you see today are what survives and their condition depends upon whether they were heavily used or were withdrawn from the bank and thrown into the back of a drawer and left there for decades.

To my mind this is what gives them real 'scarcity' or outright 'rarity'. Whether there is any demand for these coins thereafter then affects the perceived value and thus price.

So an UNC 1745 crown is a fluke and something which is genuinely rare.

Of course proofs did exist all the way back then but in small numbers for museum exhibits and friends of those at the mint etc. They was no 'collector' market in the modern sense.

Turning to modern coins, the whole MS68-MS70 issues comes from the fact that no modern coins are truly rare, especially if they are being produced close to perfect and then sealed as collector items.

Just think of our common everyday currency, why would any one save a 1995 10p from change when you can buy proof and BU sets all day long on places like eBay and from dealers up and down the country?

No modern coin is rare, some are scarce but artificially so - 'mintage of only 10,000!!! Hurry now'. Yeah but how many of those 10,000 are going to be destroyed? Sure maybe some accidentally, but the survival rate will be high.

The dateless 2008 20p is the closest thing to a proper rarity in years, it was produced accidentally, all of them went into circulation, it wasn't discovered immediately. A MS70 dateless 20p would be a fluke and thus truly rare.

[Elements]

Trading and buying off the internet is where the value of grading comes into it for me. You know from a grade it’s of a certain standard. I’m mainly a collector of older coins, those that have photographed coins themselves know it’s easy to make a good coin look bad or vice versa depending on the angle and lighting. Cleaning lines can be hard to see on many online photos unless they are harsh, having it hand and rotate it against a fixed light source is ideal but not feasible on the internet. Buying graded you typically know what you’re getting

 

[GoldStatue]

1 hour ago, Elements said:

Trading and buying off the internet is where the value of grading comes into it for me. You know from a grade it’s of a certain standard. I’m mainly a collector of older coins, those that have photographed coins themselves know it’s easy to make a good coin look bad or vice versa depending on the angle and lighting. Cleaning lines can be hard to see on many online photos unless they are harsh, having it hand and rotate it against a fixed light source is ideal but not feasible on the internet. Buying graded you typically know what you’re getting

 

That's so true, there's a vast difference to having a coin in hand and seeing pictures of them on the internet. I've seen a few youtube videos of coins where there must be exceptionally high magnification on the camera because when I've had the coin in hand they look so tiny.

Also I think it depends on what level your standards are at though, I've seen so many people assume that a PF70 is a perfect coin and not realise that the graders ignore problems on the coin that are made in the minting process or the natural degradation of a coin over time in the slab, such as milk spots.

I also think the standard of packaging in the USA has probably made it easier for the grading companies to take over their coin collecting market, it looks like the US mint puts no effort into their packaging, just a navy envelop with US mint stamped on it. After I've had a coin graded I find it a difficult decision to keep or throw away the nice wooden box and COA that you normally get with the Royal Mint sovereigns.

[stefffana]

Everyone is looking for standards of beauty.

If some magazines are telling us that a woman is gorgeous, everybody is comparing his wife with that woman and will start comparing.  But... I prefer to spend my time with my wife, even is not the most wanted woman. For me she is The Woman. The same is with coins. I like my coins, even are not graded. I've worked hard to have them, I am happy to spend time with them, I will never buy a high grade Xcoin only to keep it somewhere in a safe and to tell my friends that I have a 70 grade Xcoin. The grading system in my opinion is useless. In my eyes, a beauty is a beauty, even is a little tired. But is my personal opinion.

 

[Au79]

Grading Proof Coins : What's the Real Difference Between a PF69 and a PF70 Graded Proof Coin

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Au79

[TeaTime]

Interesting video. Basically no actual answer to the question 'what's the difference between a 70 & 69' - just a bit of waffle about magnification....

It seems like the answer is - don't ask just accept my opinion 😉 🤑