How worn is too worn? Credit to Atkinsons!

[PJRay]

I received 4 sovereigns today. Bunch of four, lucky dip bullion type of sovereigns from one of the larger online retailers.

One of them immediately jumped out at me though. It was a lot cleaner than the others and it didn't take much closer inspection to see that it was noticably worn.

Like rubbed down smooth. Someones lucky pocket peice perhaps, rubbed for good luck. Victoria's ear has vanished and, much like my own, her hairline seems to have receeded away to nothing.

My question is, is this good enough as bullion or should it have been scrapped?

I bought it for the weight, not for collecting, and my scales put it at 7.8g

If this isn't unusual then I'll just throw it in the stack with the other bullion.

Excuse the grainy photo, to the naked eye it looks a lot balder and shinier... like me.

The other sov's were fine BTW.

[Nugget]

I can't comment really, as my OCD is terrible and I wouldn't be happy if I'd paid £300 plus and had it turn up.

Doesn't mean that it's not bullion grade, but it is one reason why I don't go for the cheapest option, my OCD would be blowing off the guage now lol.

[silvernewbie]

If you paid low grade price its ok still worth spot, but if 300+ id be unhappy.  HGM used to be that condition sometimes

[MancunianStacker]

Supposed to be 7.98 grams aren’t they. Sometimes a little up or down but that seems quite a lot. Maybe see if they’ll swap it for one that weighs the correct amount. But then by the time P&P is considered it might not be worth the hassle.

They could have lost a long term repeat customer here over 0.18 of 22k gold. Dealers should consider this really. 

[Arganto]

Hello @PJRay!

Have you calibrated your scales recently? What do the other sovs weigh in at?

if it's down consistently against the other three that could be an issue, it's not a lot of gold in real world terms but you're paying for stuff as advertised and I'm sure the dealer's site will give the specs for the coins they sell. Reach out, they'll most likely be very accommodating. 

What's the reverse like? Although it shows wear I can still pick up a fair amount of detail in that obverse; eyes, nose, her pearls, the crown are all reasonable. If it was sold as 'grade C' or 'best value bullion' I'd say that is within expectations.

Just my opinions of course 👌🏻

[PJRay]

They were described as pre-owned, not as any particular grade. I've ordered some new jewellery scales to double check the weight. My old ones are quite old and only measure to the nearest 0.1g. They should arrive today. I'll try and attach a better photo as well.

So, what's an acceptable tolerance in weight for a used bullion sovereign?

I don't want to be too precious about it but my exit strategy is to one day sell x sovereigns, not x sovereigns plus one that's a bit knackered. I've always steered clear of 'grade c' for this reason.

[Nugget]

If I pay going market rate for a sovereign, then I expect it to weigh what it was supposed to weigh.  This is why I typically stick with new coins.  I may pay a tad more, but I don't have the hassle and worry (and my OCD lol).

If your coin is 10/15% down did you get a 10/15% reduction in price...that is how I would approach it / justify it in my own head.

Right now 5 x 2021 Sov's from my dealer cost £1,550 and 5 x second hand cost £1,535.  I can live with the difference.  I appreciate there may be cheaper options out there but I am happy with my dealer and the above includes postage.  You could go elsewhere and get some orderable coins around £1,520 (plus postage) or minty ones at £1,525 again orderable, but I am happy.

 

[Arganto]

Well back in the day of circulated sovereigns the minimum legal weight before a coin was recycled (melted and reused) was 7.93787g. What did the other coins you bought weigh in at on your current scales? Even if they're inaccurate you can still measure any obvious difference with an underweight coin. That said it may be difficult with a scale that is only sensitive to 0.x grams. 

There are some really well versed folk on TSF, off the top of my head

@sovereignsteve and @Pete  come to mind. I hope they don't mind the tag (there are others on here, but my memory for names is bad enough let alone net handles). Maybe they can offer experienced advice 🤞🏻

[Arganto]

I only pasted in the weight number, and the formatting went mental. I'll leave it like that, maybe that can be my new posting style 🤣

[sovereignsteve]

Underweight sovereigns have always been an issue. In the 19th century when weight really mattered as they were regarded as real money based on actual weight of gold.
These days they are simply a unit of gold; usually traded at a price commensurate with 7.98g of 22ct gold, I am not aware of any dealer that weighs them when they purchase.

You usually see dealers advertise them at full weight, so technically they are short changing with you a significantly underweight coin. Yours is missing £7 of gold by my calculation although I don't guarantee accuracy 😉 Whether this bothers you is up to you and how the coin was advertised.

[Arganto]

If you had to guess from the pictures (which is extremely difficult obviously 😁) @sovereignsteve would you say that would qualify as "Fine" if it were to be graded? I've seen other coins with similar wear slabbed with a "Fine" grade on them, although again that's only looking at pictures.

It's all relative I guess, if it's bugging you @PJRay I would definitely call or email the dealer, I bet they'll be helpful.

[Britannia47]

Your latest photos seem to show an acceptable bullion coin despite the wear on the obverse. Your new scales with .01g should show IMO that you should be close to 7.98g. I've just weighed my 1887 Jubilee head bullion sovereign and it was just touching on 7.98g. I only have 2 'underweight' (below about 7.94) sovs, both being well circulated Victorian Young-heads. So relax you might be surprised. 

[Pete]

Brand new uncirculated sovereigns tend to weigh 8.00, 8.01 or occasionally 8.02 g
I took delivery this week of 4 typical well-circulated sovereigns, showing all the expected dings, pits and bag marks.
Dated 1913 - 1931 and the weights were all 8.00g or 8.01 i.e. the same as brand new modern coins.
My belief is that some reigns and from some mints ( South Africa for example ) the tolerance in weight was above the average because gold was much cheaper.
So even with wear and tear they still meet the minimum specifications.
Modern production and tighter tolerances mean that no mint today wants to give away free gold.
I checked my spreadsheet of sovereigns ranging from 1879 to 2019 and the average weight was 7.99g.
Made up 20% Victorian, 30% Elizabeth, 50% between the two monarchs fairly well spread.
I think an old coin circa 1900 that weighs over 7.90 is still okay, but only if I paid regular bullion price, but I've never received anything below 7.94g from the likes of HGM and others.
 

[Arganto]

I reckon if you put that up for sale right now on here for £305-£310 plus post it would sell pretty quickly. Not sure how that compares to what you paid (comparative to spot at that time) but that puts it into the same territory of what's being charged for a single coin from dealers against current spot price. 

 

[PJRay]

new scales have arrived and the weight's in....

 

 

 

... 7.93g

 

 

[Arganto]

Nice dude, I'm happy for you. Also, you now have rad scales!

 

[Britannia47]

Calibrated my 'Tanita' scales and weighed all my sovereigns this morning. Pete was correct - later sovereigns can weigh in at 8.0 or slightly over. Most of mine were 7.98, flicking 7.99. However, earlier sovs. displaying some wear can display weight loss up to 0.05g. Several of my shield=backs were 7.94/95/97 etc.  My earliest sov. 1817 came in at 7.98, so better get it graded!  The heaviest was a Pobjoy minted Isle of Man 1979 sovereign at 8.19g. A 1/4 oz Griffon came in at exactly .250 so perhaps the RM doesn't always give away free gold! Anyway, weight shouldn't be an issue for bullion stackers. I am a collector.

PJRay Happy Stacking!

[PJRay]

4 hours ago, Britannia47 said:

Calibrated my 'Tanita' scales and weighed all my sovereigns this morning. Pete was correct - later sovereigns can weigh in at 8.0 or slightly over. Most of mine were 7.98, flicking 7.99. However, earlier sovs. displaying some wear can display weight loss up to 0.05g. Several of my shield=backs were 7.94/95/97 etc.  My earliest sov. 1817 came in at 7.98, so better get it graded!  The heaviest was a Pobjoy minted Isle of Man 1979 sovereign at 8.19g. A 1/4 oz Griffon came in at exactly .250 so perhaps the RM doesn't always give away free gold! Anyway, weight shouldn't be an issue for bullion stackers. I am a collector.

PJRay Happy Stacking!

So, after sleeping on it, I decided to email the dealer and ask to return that sovereign.

The fact that it was so visibly worn down, to the extent that I felt the need to order new scales and check just how underweight such a worn sovereign could be, has justified the £20 I spent on them to check the weight.

I’m loathe to be that precious customer but, if I wanted to sell a bunch of my bullion sovereigns on this forum, I’d have to make an exception for this one and point out its unusually worn condition and underweight. That’s the bottom line for me, that when come to sell it, I don’t want the buyer to come back to me with the same concern that I immediately recognised. I’m not picky honestly, I just wanted a bullion grade sovereign, not a jewellery grade one.

I’ve taken on board other more experienced members comments about old and worn sovereigns and noted that this coin is lighter than their most worn examples. In future I will be immediately knocking back anything that comes in less than 7.94g

I reached out to Atkinsons this morning and so far, they haven’t responded.

[OldNick]

This thread has motivated me to calibrate my scales and weigh my sovereigns!!

Pre decimal all 8.00g and the lone Decimal 7.98g 

If one was at 7.94 I’d feel a little cheated, I think your doing the right thing

[SidS]

I suspect half sovereigns will be worse, being a smaller coin the wear rates will be more pronounced!

 

[PJRay]

Still no response from Atkinsons about this. Emailing again this morning and phone calls will follow.

Starting to get the impression their plan it to just ingnore me.

[Arganto]

1 hour ago, PJRay said:

Still no response from Atkinsons about this. Emailing again this morning and phone calls will follow.

Starting to get the impression their plan it to just ingnore me.

I'd give them a call bud, even though they're a 'big name' in the PM market I bet they don't have a massive customer service department answering emails and are probably flat out at the moment fulfilling orders and sourcing stock. A phone call will more than likely get picked up.

[InvestInCoins888]

You are the customer and the customer is (nearly) always right. I’m sure they will exchange it for you.

 

Personally, a worn bullion sovereign is all part of the course. Looking at the photos I can’t see anything that would detract from its bullion value. It’s old and has been used. Believe it or not, some collectors like their sovereigns to look like they have had some action, they like a circulated coin.

 

Overweight sovereigns (not new ones at 8g) should be ringing alarm bells! There are some excellent counterfeit coins out their. However getting the dimensions and weight spot on is nigh on impossible.

[PJRay]

8 hours ago, Liam84 said:

I'd give them a call bud, even though they're a 'big name' in the PM market I bet they don't have a massive customer service department answering emails and are probably flat out at the moment fulfilling orders and sourcing stock. A phone call will more than likely get picked up.

A phone call is great for getting peoples attention, but they're not a record of a formal complaint, with a date and an explanation of the issue that can be called upon later.

6 hours ago, InvestInCoins888 said:

You are the customer and the customer is (nearly) always right. I’m sure they will exchange it for you.

 

Personally, a worn bullion sovereign is all part of the course. Looking at the photos I can’t see anything that would detract from its bullion value. It’s old and has been used. Believe it or not, some collectors like their sovereigns to look like they have had some action, they like a circulated coin.

 

Overweight sovereigns (not new ones at 8g) should be ringing alarm bells! There are some excellent counterfeit coins out their. However getting the dimensions and weight spot on is nigh on impossible.

I like worn old sovereigns. I like their patina, it tells their story. I wasn't expecting anything even closely resembling something new. Perhaps the photos don't do it justice. The other three I got with it are dirty, scratched and dinged and exactly how I expected. This one however it stood out immediately as missing some gold. Victoria's features are worn away and she looks decidedly bald, like half her face has been rubbed away to nothing. That's where the missing weight is from... her face.

That means that, if I wanted to sell this coin, I would have to point its faults for fear of it being returned to me. That's all I care about, having a coin in a reasonable bullion condition to eventually sell. If I received it and immediately thought it wasn't in an acceptable condition, how could I expect someone who receives it from me not to care?

Anyway, on a happier note, Atkinsons have replied this afternoon and are stated they will gladly exchange the coin. So it's going back in the post, special delivery. That'll cost me a few quid but it's not about the money and not about unrealistic expectations or OCD, it's just about the resale value.

[Pete]

45 minutes ago, PJRay said:

Anyway, on a happier note, Atkinsons have replied this afternoon and are stated they will gladly exchange the coin. So it's going back in the post, special delivery. That'll cost me a few quid but it's not about the money and not about unrealistic expectations or OCD, it's just about the resale value.

Pleased to hear that Atkinsons have agreed to swap your worn out coin.
This gives them a good reputation which could have gone the other way had they argued with you.
One bad experience is shared amongst many others so the smart dealer will know not to upset forum members as this will bite them in the ass !!