Buying second hand / pre owned silver in the UK

[scubajunky]

Hi all,

I'm a bit confused, Chards and Atkinsons have pre owned silver for sale with 20% VAT.

If the VAT has already been paid I don't understand why they are charging it again ?

Where is the best place to buy second hand silver in the UK or at least minimal VAT silver. 

Thanks in advance

[Norskgeld]

Put a wanted ad on here and someone will respond.

[scubajunky]

Is it a safe place to buy though? I thought there were fake bars and coins doing the rounds....

[sovereignsteve]

8 minutes ago, scubajunky said:

Is it a safe place to buy though? I thought there were fake bars and coins doing the rounds....

On here, where did you hear that?😮

[scubajunky]

no, i just thought that bars were a bit sketchy, easy to get a fake one from China etc

[BackyardBullion]

51 minutes ago, scubajunky said:

Hi all,

I'm a bit confused, Chards and Atkinsons have pre owned silver for sale with 20% VAT.

If the VAT has already been paid I don't understand why they are charging it again ?

Where is the best place to buy second hand silver in the UK or at least minimal VAT silver. 

Thanks in advance

It is because to not charge VAT on the sale they will need to have a specific set of criteria when they got the items from wherever they did. They will have to keep very meticulous records and when it comes to their quarterly VAT returns it is quite a nightmare to account for. 

A lot of companies do not bother, but even when they do it can be very hard to actually do it properly.  

[BackyardBullion]

Here is all the information about second hand goods from VAT registered companies.

https://www.gov.uk/vat-margin-schemes

The best place to get silver 2nd hand is here in the sales section. 

[sixgun]

6 minutes ago, scubajunky said:

no, i just thought that bars were a bit sketchy, easy to get a fake one from China etc

Oh Lordy Lordy - this is one of the safest places to buy gold and silver in the Kingdom. 
Yes there are a lot of sketchy coins and bars about - that's why you are best to steer clear of sketchy places like ebay.

But if you buy from longstanding members on the forum then you are as safe as houses. 

[scubajunky]

Great, thanks for the info guys.

[silenceissilver]

41 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

It is because to not charge VAT on the sale they will need to have a specific set of criteria when they got the items from wherever they did. They will have to keep very meticulous records and when it comes to their quarterly VAT returns it is quite a nightmare to account for. 

A lot of companies do not bother, but even when they do it can be very hard to actually do it properly.  

Goldsilbershop.de a German bullion dealer said also a lot of German dealers don't bother to keep the records, the logcists etc but they would. I have never bought from them and didn't double check on their webpage. It doesn't really matter here in the UK what German dealers do, though. 

[BackyardBullion]

1 minute ago, silenceissilver said:

Goldsilbershop.de a German bullion dealer said also a lot of German dealers don't bother to keep the records, the logcists etc but they would. I have never bought from them and didn't double check on their webpage. It doesn't really matter here in the UK what German dealers do, though. 

Yeah, the admin burden is really high and also requires significant amounts of personal information to be stored by the company of the customer they bought from. Many companies just don't want the hassle of it - also if a customer asks for them to delete personal information because of GDPR the whole process will be made more complicated if the VAT man audits (which I understand to be quite often for large users of this 2nd hand scheme)

A lot of companies just don't/can't cope with this level of additional admin.

[sixgun]

45 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

It is because to not charge VAT on the sale they will need to have a specific set of criteria when they got the items from wherever they did. They will have to keep very meticulous records and when it comes to their quarterly VAT returns it is quite a nightmare to account for. 

A lot of companies do not bother, but even when they do it can be very hard to actually do it properly.  

Yes but Atkinsons and Chards do charge VAT - they do sell using the margin relief scheme. i feel sure they will keep very meticulous records that run like clockwork and they do not suffer nightmares with their quarterly returns. It is funny this questions was asked b/c i just happened to looked through Atkinson's site tonight and saw second hand silver advertised and saw they were charging VAT on it. 

[sixgun]

2 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

Yeah, the admin burden is really high and also requires significant amounts of personal information to be stored by the company of the customer they bought from. Many companies just don't want the hassle of it - also if a customer asks for them to delete personal information because of GDPR the whole process will be made more complicated if the VAT man audits (which I understand to be quite often for large users of this 2nd hand scheme)

A lot of companies just don't/can't cope with this level of additional admin.

If information is needed for tax, accounting or other purposes it is not deleted. Customers are informed in the GDPR small print that such information will not be deleted and they have no right to have it deleted.

[BackyardBullion]

Just now, sixgun said:

If information is needed for tax, accounting or other purposes it is not deleted. Customers are informed in the GDPR small print that such information will not be deleted and they have no right to have it deleted.

Good to know, thanks!

[sixgun]

@scubajunky why don't you ask Lawrence Chard the question - he is a member of this forum. @LawrenceChard

[Robda1986]

What you'll generally find here is a heck of a lot of very ocd and diligent members who can spot a fake a mile off. Most here know what their looking at and how to test what they have so fakes and scammers don't generally make it through the cracks and if they do don't last very long. Sales stall if people don't put up pics with their screen name and date to prove genuine pm's 10k+ sales arnt uncommon. Byb dose a service where you can get items sent to him as a 3rd party he confirms delivery you pay for item and he forwards it on 

[dicker]

10 hours ago, scubajunky said:

no, i just thought that bars were a bit sketchy, easy to get a fake one from China etc

Hi @scubajunky

(1) Personally, I have not ever seen anything counterfeit advertised for sale on TSF.  Nor have I have not heard of anyone selling anything counterfeit. Others may have and if so please do pipe up!

(2) Are bars safe - yes if purchased on the forum 99.9 pct of the time.

• Silver bars are much less likely to be counterfeit. If you are worried steer clear of home made bars that may not be 999 silver or whatever purity you think you are buying - or go for hallmarked silver like BYB's
• Gold bars are more commonly counterfeited - e.g. Perth mint 1ox bars you see on eBay for £10 to £150.  

Personally I would avoid eBay totally as this is where I constantly see the following:

• Fake Sovereigns
• Fake Krugs and other 1 Oz Coins
• Fake Ancient coins
• Fake Gold bullion bars in Perth Mint plastic security seals
• Fake graded gold
• Home cast 'silver bars' that the seller claims to be 999 or 925 'but you need to do your own tests' after purchasing!!!!!
• 'Home clearance' finds of fake gold coins - 'sold as seen' as part of a bundle.  Often half of a gold Sovereign shown in a mixed group of copper and cupronickel coins.

Best

Dicker

[StackerNoob]

I have bought close to half my stack here on TSF. Its the only place on the internet I have close to complete confidence when buying second hand.

[Arganto]

When the property market falls through the floor, into the basement and onward into the land of the subterranean Ana The Silver Forum should buy a small building somewhere where the members could sell In there on a timeshare basis 🤣 We'd have to build a nightclub or something out front though and have a big guy, probably called Vinny, stand in front of the internal door that leads to the shop...

[dicker]

Here is a typical example - on sale for 42 quid.  The "diamond in the rough" scam - from a "house clearance".  Can you spot it?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-modern-Large-lot-of-mixed-house-clearance-inc-coins-job-lot/293952189726?hash=item4470ea751e:g:IWQAAOSwd-5f~Zip

 

[KPW82]

1 hour ago, dicker said:

Hi @scubajunky

(1) Personally, I have not ever seen anything counterfeit advertised for sale on TSF.  Nor have I have not heard of anyone selling anything counterfeit. Others may have and if so please do pipe up!

(2) Are bars safe - yes if purchased on the forum 99.9 pct of the time.

• Silver bars are much less likely to be counterfeit. If you are worried steer clear of home made bars that may not be 999 silver or whatever purity you think you are buying - or go for hallmarked silver like BYB's
• Gold bars are more commonly counterfeited - e.g. Perth mint 1ox bars you see on eBay for £10 to £150.  

Personally I would avoid eBay totally as this is where I constantly see the following:

• Fake Sovereigns
• Fake Krugs and other 1 Oz Coins
• Fake Ancient coins
• Fake Gold bullion bars in Perth Mint plastic security seals
• Fake graded gold
• Home cast 'silver bars' that the seller claims to be 999 or 925 'but you need to do your own tests' after purchasing!!!!!
• 'Home clearance' finds of fake gold coins - 'sold as seen' as part of a bundle.  Often half of a gold Sovereign shown in a mixed group of copper and cupronickel coins.

Best

Dicker

I've seen lots of fake coins on ebay lately..

1oz Kangaroos

1oz Walking Liberty

1oz Funnel Web Spider

1oz Chinese Pandas 

A seller called pc collectables is particularly bad (hope I'm OK to put their name?) Multiple bad feedbacks stating fake coins but is still selling loads on there!

[Silverman2U]

2 hours ago, dicker said:

Here is a typical example - on sale for 42 quid.  The "diamond in the rough" scam - from a "house clearance".  Can you spot it?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-modern-Large-lot-of-mixed-house-clearance-inc-coins-job-lot/293952189726?hash=item4470ea751e:g:IWQAAOSwd-5f~Zip

 

Fake VC in there. Look like 3 crowns in there, all difference sizes! lol

Most people that are selling a lot of coppers like that know what there are selling.

[LawrenceChard]

14 hours ago, sixgun said:

@scubajunky why don't you ask Lawrence Chard the question - he is a member of this forum. @LawrenceChard

Also on ebay there are lots of fraudsters, and probably the world'd biggest stolen property market.

Do not believe ebay "fake news" about it being a safe place to buy.

Secondhand / VAT

Answers here:

https://www.chards.co.uk/info/investing-in-silver-frequently-asked-questions

Including:

Do I Pay VAT on Silver?

As a UK (and EU) resident you will be charged VAT at 20% if you take delivery of silver in the EU. If you are outside the EU and ask us to export the items for you there is no VAT applicable and you could even reclaim any VAT paid if you choose to export yourself.

If you buy new silver 20% VAT is applied to the full value of the goods whereas if you buy second hand silver sold on the special scheme you will pay 20% VAT on the dealers margin. Please note not all second hand goods are sold on the special scheme. 

You can take advantage of VAT-free silver and platinum stored in bonded EU warehouses and you only need pay VAT or customs duty if you ever choose to have the goods delivered. If you choose to simply sell back to Chards you never need to pay the VAT.

[scubajunky]

Thanks so much to everyone who has replied. Great information.

So you think the housing market will collapse also? I kind of do too, I mean how long can it possibly stay pumped for if everyone is losing their jobs ? 

[SilverJacks]

6 hours ago, dicker said:

Here is a typical example - on sale for 42 quid.  The "diamond in the rough" scam - from a "house clearance".  Can you spot it?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-modern-Large-lot-of-mixed-house-clearance-inc-coins-job-lot/293952189726?hash=item4470ea751e:g:IWQAAOSwd-5f~Zip

 

Note how you can't see the obverse on those Thomas the Tanks. Not falling for that again.