Advice on Half Eagle Indian Head

[SilverJacks]

Hi guys, I’m a noob coin collector and would greatly appreciate thoughts on the coin I purchased online

I love the look of the Indian head, but I hear they are a mine field for fakes so I decided to buy from a large, reputable dealer.

I checked my purchase against pictures of other Indian heads and found that the “United States” writing is quite far from the edge on reverse side.

I did inquire with the dealer and was told it was simply how the coin was struck, and that may well be the case but it’s driving me crazy wondering.

I paid 30% premium for what was described as vf. As I now understand it, it’s good practice to try and get the best condition version you can manage. But me being inexperienced, I was happy just to have an authentic coin so I turned down an ef coin at 40% premium.
Here are the photos provided by the dealer and some photos I took myself. I’d love to hear the opinion of more experienced collectors.

 

also, I could only attach these 3 pics before exceeding the limit

 

[dicker]

Hi

The incuse Indian Head coins are a bit of a nightmare to grade and establish if they are genuine. 
 

What I found is that coin dealers in the US offer significantly better prices on pre 33 coins compared to buying in Europe. 
 

Best Dicker

[SilverJacks]

Hi Dicker, thanks for the reply.

 

I had looked on eBay at the U.S sellers but the import charges pretty much ruled that out. Plus my lack of experience and know how leaves me weary of eBay.
If you had to hazard a guess, what you say it’s fake or legit? 

[dicker]

Honestly I could not tell.  Even looking at them in person I can’t tell a good counterfeit from the real thing.  
 

Best

Dicker

[SilverJacks]

Fair one. Thanks man

[dicker]

I think one of Numistackers videos has an Indian Head coming back as counterfeit and Numi was surprised. 
 

It’s the only thing I would grade, just so I could see if it’s real.  
 

Best

Dicker

[SilverJacks]

Your honest opinion is very much appreciated bud.

[Britannia47]

Similar thread to this by Leon Marsh Dec 11 2020 ' Indian Head Experts Opinions' Check it out.

 

[SilverJacks]

Thanks Britannia47. I had a scan but couldn’t upload a photo of my coin to the thread as I’m out of data allowance for the forum. I’m still learning how this works and considering whether to pay for membership.

I’ll just hope someone replies with some opinion on the coin in regard to the way it’s struck.
Perhaps there’s someone with interest/knowledge of the minting process that would allow for variance in how the blanks are struck?

I hope the dealer (who are very large and well known) are right that it’s simply struck slightly to one side. I just can’t find photos of an Indian head with the writing that far from the edge. Maybe someone would know whether it is indeed normal to see such variance or whether, as I fear most, it ain’t normal, potentially counterfeit and my inquiries were fobbed off by the dealer....

[Leonmarsh]

For me they are genuine, no obvious tooling marks, correct lustre etc 

 

[SilverJacks]

Thanks for your input Leon. Do you have an opinion on the reverse strike not being quite centre? That's what concerns me. I do hope I'm worrying over nothing but I cant help but notice the "united" writing further from the edge than anything else I can compare to in photos.

[SilverJacks]

If the "united" wording is noticeably further from the edge then shouldn't everything else be out with it? I don't know... I'm new to all this and, by my own standards, I pushed the boat out affording this coin and I really want to enjoy it for what it's worth.... 

[Leonmarsh]

Where did you get them from and what price did you pay if you dont mind me asking 

[SilverJacks]

I paid £460 (30% premium) for the VF. Foolishly, I turned down the EF because it was £30 more at 40%. Live and learn I guess. If i'd bought the EF, not only would I have had a better coin, but also wouldn't have much concern as the reverse writing seems just fine on the EF.  

I don't know whether to say the dealers name... Everyone will know of them but is it bad etiquette to name them publicly when I'm questioning the coins authenticity and could be worrying over nothing? I dunno, I'm still learning...

[Leonmarsh]

It's a decent price for the coins mate I'm sure if there a reputable dealer they would take it back if it doesn't check out 

On the other hand if they are reputable they are probably genuine 

[SilverJacks]

You have a fair point mate, I appreciate it. I chose to buy from them for that very reason too. 

I'd love to have them graded just to remove any doubt about the way the strike lines up. I'll try and find out the best way to go about it, if it's even possible right now with these lockdowns

[dicker]

I think that is worth doing (grading).

The VF example looks to have a sharper edge than the ones I have seen and handled.  Additionally it looks like some of the stars points may be truncated where they point to the rim?  If so, not seen that before (but I have limited experience and have not looked at hundreds of these In the hand).  But could be the photos and that I am looking at them at 345 am on my iPhone!

The 1909 is 21st out of NGC’s 50 most counterfeited US coins, an article on 1909 forgery detection pasted below.   

Hope this helps.

Best

Dicker 

https://www.ngccoin.in/resources/counterfeit-detection/top/united-states/21/

https://www.ngccoin.in/resources/counterfeit-detection/top/united-states/

 

 

 

[dicker]

And check out Numis unboxing video where a counterfeit 5 dollar is returned from grading.  From 4mins 20 seconds onwards.  
 

https://youtu.be/UacWhc3w5U4

Cheers

Dicker

[Hunter87]

Hope it all works out in the end for you.

[SilverJacks]

Appreciate your time an consideration Dicker. I didn't notice issues with the stars or edge, but then I'm not experienced enough to do so. All i could tell is the "united" further from the edge than the EF. So I scoured the web, through photo after photo and couldn't find another example of it... 

Grading is the answer, but how do I go  about it?

Thanks a lot Hunter87. Your gesture is much appreciated bud.

[Hunter87]

I just watched this video which got me thinking about your coin. In the video the guys explains these coins are 90% gold and 10% copper I wonder if you took yours to be tested could that give some indication if it’s real or not? I’m not sure if counterfeiters could get the percentages exact or not. 

It’s a lovely coin either way, hope it works out in the end for you. 

[SilverJacks]

Nice one Hunter87, thanks for the vid, It's one i haven't come across before.

Yeah I think the dealers have devices that can judge is purity with relative accuracy. so i'm told, counterfeiters have gone to great lengths with these coins over the years. But as you know, I am many miles from being an expert on this

I assume the dealer will have got it right with the purity, weight and diameter. Anything less than that would be outright dishonest, or schoolboy error. I keep mentioning the reverse being struck off centre, with the "united" being too far from the edge yet nobody has responded to my concerns. I would love to be making an ass of myself and worrying over nothing on this.... But i just can't find a photo of one of these coins that has the similarity, which sadly leaves the doubts in my mind... Plus there is the issues raised by Dicker...

Thanks again Hunter. If/when i get to the bottom of this, I shall keep you posted.

[Leonmarsh]

Here’s mine for reference if it helps 

[Leonmarsh]

I think yours are legit for the avoidance of doubt 

[Leonmarsh]

Which is a 1909 which I know is authentic similar strike