United Kingdom 1 shilling 1817, doubling?

[Schnitzel]

Greetings! Now! Who is the forum's leading expert on old shillings?

I have an 1817 shilling in (in my humble opinion) quite good shape. However it seems to have die cracks and doubling of the lettering on the obverse. Does anyone know if this is common on this type of coins or if I made a rather bad deal?  Well.. No I didn't do a bad deal because I was willing to pay for it anyways, I saw the doubling afterward so it might all be just a big bonus  

 

Sorry for the rather poor image quality of my microscope (my poor focus handling more like it!). I have some more close-ups of the text but I'll start with these. 

Any information would be helpful.

[Midasfrog]

It may well be a contemporary forgery there were many struck during that period . Still collectable though and in good condition.

[Schnitzel]

15 minutes ago, Midasfrog said:

It may well be a contemporary forgery there were many struck during that period . Still collectable though and in good condition.

Interesting! Any ideas where to read up on the subject and maybe learn how to distinguish between them?

[Midasfrog]

Here is an example of a forgery struck with stolen dies or very well made dies.

[Midasfrog]

2 minutes ago, Schnitzel said:

Interesting! Any ideas where to read up on the subject and maybe learn how to distinguish between them?

Yes if you google contemporary forgery George III shillings . There is some interesting information from collectors. 

[Schnitzel]

Quite interesting! A quick google gave some interesting results I haven't though that it might be a forgery as it is silver as far as I know. It weight correctly and passes the magnet slide test at least.  I shall investigate further! Thank you!

[Midasfrog]

Looks like a crack in the base metal layer near the lettering ,the forgeries had a very thin silver coating 👍

[Schnitzel]

2 minutes ago, Midasfrog said:

Looks like a crack in the base metal layer near the lettering ,the forgeries had a very thin silver coating 👍

Indeed it does! And I tried the magnet test again with a 1787 shilling I have... I might have been sold a forgery 😮 Good thing I'm a friend of the coin dealer seller, I shall see what he has to say about it  Fun piece none the less! 

[Midasfrog]

1 minute ago, Schnitzel said:

Indeed it does! And I tried the magnet test again with a 1787 shilling I have... I might have been sold a forgery 😮 Good thing I'm a friend of the coin dealer seller, I shall see what he has to say about it  Fun piece none the less! 

The forgeries are worth more to collectors and that one is in very fine condition. I think you did really well with that deal 👍

[Schnitzel]

59 minutes ago, Midasfrog said:

The forgeries are worth more to collectors and that one is in very fine condition. I think you did really well with that deal 👍

I have begun investiogations in earnest now haha!  I'm both grateful and a little bit annoyed with myself for asking haha  I hope you take it the right way

You can maybe guide me to those collectors one day?  so I might get an estimation what potential forgeries go for nowadays

[Schnitzel]

I can now add a little more information  The weight is 5,68-5,69 on the scale, proper weight should be 5,66. And the cling is exactly the same as a guaranteed genuine shilling from 1865. So that bodes well  But the magnet test, it slides of much quicker than the 1865 but definitely slower than a copper nickel coin? 

[Midasfrog]

Have you checked the diameter yet ? 😃 

[Schnitzel]

11 hours ago, Midasfrog said:

Have you checked the diameter yet ? 😃 

Haha, well no. But I have now! 23,5 mm Catalogue says 24 so within margin I would say  

[Midasfrog]

Silver purity check ? Sigma metal scanner or the ice test. Just reading that pure silver is an excellent conductor of heat . If an ice cube is placed on top of the ring or coin if it melts instantly it indicates the object is genuine silver. 😃

[Schnitzel]

I would love a Sigma metal scanner but the prices on those! I'd have to sell my krügerrand for that almost 🥵

It's a little small to pass the ice cube test I think. I tried it on a genuine shilling but same poor result sadly. But! Apparently I have a colleague with a Sigma verifier So havn't lost hope yet  

[Schnitzel]

Right! Coin off to testing Soon we'll know!  

[Schnitzel]

So! I have news! The metalyzer thingie gave some interesting results! It gave negative on sterling silver 92,5% but possitive on 90%. In my opinion that would suggest that this coin is genuine? Does anyone by any chance know how "exact" the metal mixing was 200 years ago?

If I'm not mistaken, this leads me back to my original question

 

 

[Wampum]

Hi ,just my opinion, however looks as if the die has cracked ,and this is the terminal die state.

The line running through the letters is the metal from the planchet flowing into the crack, as the the coin is struck, which gives it a raised effect.

The doubling you see on the other letters is the die being force from the hub, with GEOR being the least affected

(I am almost certain you can find 1817 shilling with earlier stages, however don't quote me).  ----I think there are coins with fine lines running along the Truncation.

With the GEOR and the date as it is I would say that part was still more firmly attached to the HUB. 

The best known example of this type is on the Cromwell Crown, and coins can be traced as the crack has worsened.I think the Royal Mint still have the DIE.   

Nice coin to own, as it's nearer top end grade wise and would definitely be classed as a Mint error.  

Hope this helps, however this is only my best guess, so would be well worth the research.      

[Schnitzel]

8 hours ago, Wampum said:

Hi ,just my opinion, however looks as if the die has cracked ,and this is the terminal die state.

The line running through the letters is the metal from the planchet flowing into the crack, as the the coin is struck, which gives it a raised effect.

The doubling you see on the other letters is the die being force from the hub, with GEOR being the least affected

(I am almost certain you can find 1817 shilling with earlier stages, however don't quote me).  ----I think there are coins with fine lines running along the Truncation.

With the GEOR and the date as it is I would say that part was still more firmly attached to the HUB. 

The best known example of this type is on the Cromwell Crown, and coins can be traced as the crack has worsened.I think the Royal Mint still have the DIE.   

Nice coin to own, as it's nearer top end grade wise and would definitely be classed as a Mint error.  

Hope this helps, however this is only my best guess, so would be well worth the research.      

Very interesting reading! Thank you! I will most certainly research it more