Fake $5 Indian head or not? Help me out

[firestacker]

So today I received a $5 Indian head from a dealer and to be honest I'm paranoid this might be fake. In all fairness the previous Indian I bought years ago gave me the same sort of paranoia so maybe it's just me. 

My concerns:
- Faces are faded which could be wear but the reeded edge is well defined almost with an overlip (maybe it's an error)
- Details behind the neck are weak
- Coin is underweight at 8.2g and dimensions seem wider too. I don't know what tolerances are acceptable but NGC specs are 8.36g, 21.6mm diameter, 1.4mm thickness

Any experts on here?

 

 

 

 

[dicker]

Hi

The Indian Heads have been widely counterfeited, and I really do have difficulty differentiating good forgeries from genuine coins.  I don't think I am the only one.

Perhaps there is someone with better knowledge than me who could answer - this is one of the only types of coins I buy graded, simply because its too hard for me to determine if it is fake or not!

Best

Dicker

[firestacker]

Thanks Dicker, yeah they are tricky coins and it is a good point. Either buy from 100% reputable sources or only buy slabbed. They are such lovely coins and are generally hard to come by in the UK so my fingers on the buy button tend to be a bit too snappy 😅

[sovereignsteve]

I have no experience of these coins but if a sovereign were that light in weight and thicker than a genuine one, it would be a fake no doubt.

[47Ag79Au78Pt]

Out of curiosity, what do/can counterfeiters fake about a coin like this?  could they try to alloy the gold with another metal or could they make a 100% gold coin but fake the minting/manufacture to get the premium on the coin?  I've heard that there are plenty of fake Sovereigns usually made in India or China and alloyed with more copper than the real ones, but I'd imagine that the size/vol/density would be way out.  

I hope you don't mind me asking.

[firestacker]

Is this a tool mark guys? See below.

[dicker]

8 hours ago, 47Ag79Au78Pt said:

https://www.pcgs.com/news/indian-head-quarter-eagles-king-of-the-counterfeit-gold-coin

 

[Wampum]

You could do a gravity test on it, to find out if it is the correct gold content, if it's fake, these mainly came from the middle east along with Sovereigns and other's in the 50 to 70.I know that a lot of

sovereign fakes, where made ,however their gold content varied so are not always correct, so you still see coins  now with 18K or whatever their gold content is stamped onto them.

The difference in weight could be attributed to wear, however the coin seems to have little wear (not really sure what a worn one would look like).

You could probably work it out with the PIE R thingy  to see how much additional mass the coin has, or a good reference is to find the same coin, as dimension's aren't always exact on early coins.   

A more costly alternative is to have it slabbed, which if it is a fake,however still gold you have a bullion weight, if it is genuine you have a coin that's worth more as it's authenticated        

[Wampum]

I am not sure if this will help, however looked up what it should be if you try the test ---USA Gold coin 17.18 to 17.2 ----Pure Gold 19.32.

   

[firestacker]

The seller who is a gold dealer who does a lot of gold coin trades has claimed to XRF tested it. He appears to be legit and is offering a refund.
The dealer says it was purchased through a coin auction in the states which I imagine would also have some checks involved.

I did actually try and do a gravity test on the coin but to be honest I don't trust it for this small of a weight. The measurements for the coin in the water are so minute that any small difference changes the number drastically.

I will have a go on my other small coins to see if I get the same sort of numbers. I'm not getting numbers in the 17's for either of my indian heads, maybe they're both fake 😅

I have done the ping test on both and both ping nice high and long.

[greendragon]

i notice your scales only go to one decimal place

how accurate do you think they are?

you could have cheap scales and be worrying for nothing.

 

[firestacker]

True, they aren't the best. I'll look for something better👍

[RacerCool]

The raised lip on the reverse concerns me. If he's offering a refund maybe it would be a good idea to take it.

[Lindeman]

Agree with @RacerCool - the lip is never raised/serrated and visible on the genuine $5 coins. I will not pretend to be an expert but I am a collector of these gold Indian Heads ...so I have suffered the pain of buying raw coins and NGC returning them in the dreaded body bag “not genuine”.  Have also had the joy of picking raw coins and getting genuine coins that graded well. I would take the refund, lick your wounds and look for a graded one ! 

[firestacker]

Thanks guys. 
Assuming the dealer is telling this truth and this is 90% gold why would a common year Indian head be faked with the same amount of gold when it doesn't have a special mint mark? 

Ping test below for those interested:
https://youtu.be/hYzATUXIRF4

[greendragon]

as it is Wider, AND thicker AND under weight, it may well not be the correct gold amount

get an independent sigma check 

[firestacker]

Thanks guys I've returned the Indian head. I'm in the process of either getting a refund or exchanging for a different one.

[ilovesilverireallydo]

@firestacker I know the seller you bought this from. He would test them but in this case I am afraid this raised edge is a red flag. 

[ilovesilverireallydo]

When in doubt look at known “weak areas”. Here is a known genuine one. 

[firestacker]

Thanks @ilovesilverireallydo yep. It's not just the reeded edge that raises flags for me, as others have mentioned the dimensions are not right and neither is the weight as well as the lack of detail behind the neck is a concern. I'm still in the process of resolving this but I have returned the coin.