Royal mint + NGC link up

[Oldun]

The RM is taking away anyone’s chances of getting a PF70 now from one of their boxed coins. This will create a surge in grading for bullion coins as The RM are wiping out regular collectors of PFs who aren’t made of money.

As an aside, those currently holding pre 2020 proof coins may have just received a small windfall?

This RM move makes companies like the Coin Connection and the quality control they have performed on RM coins thus far even more valuable.

 

I think it could well even see a turn away from RM proofs to proofs from other Mints that are not pre graded ?

 

I feel sorry for the QB series proof collectors if the RM pre grades. The final coin/coins are going to be expensive ! It may even see some current proof series collectors give up and sell short term. And as for the Great Engravers Series........plebs will have to settle for less quality at a higher price....only those with major moolah will be in the game. 50%+  of ordininary buyers of proofs just got told they are out of the game of PF70s.

 

It certainly has taken the jam out of  RM proof collectors’ doughnuts and the fun in getting a 70.

 

[sovereignsteve]

11 hours ago, Numistacker said:

Remember that what RM will try to do is make this a normal every day thing.

The question is how they are selecting these coins for grading and how NGC deal with bulk grading?

I know you have told us in the past how this bulk grading works.

Will the RM send the whole batch of say 500 coins to NGC and they pick out so many at grade 70 to slab and return the rest?

Or will they grade the required number and then stop looking for any more 70s? Or do the RM pick a number of 70s they require and guess how many coins to send in to achieve this aim?

Will the RM do post production checks and only send in the ones they deem "perfect"?

It will be interesting to see if this new initiative has any effect on the ratio of pf70 and pf69 grading results you observe.

 

[BrumChris]

2 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

The question is how they are selecting these coins for grading and how NGC deal with bulk grading?

I know you have told us in the past how this bulk grading works.

Will the RM send the whole batch of say 500 coins to NGC and they pick out so many at grade 70 to slab and return the rest?

Or will they grade the required number and then stop looking for any more 70s? Or do the RM pick a number of 70s they require and guess how many coins to send in to achieve this aim?

Will the RM do post production checks and only send in the ones they deem "perfect"?

It will be interesting to see if this new initiative has any effect on the ratio of pf70 and pf69 grading results you observe.

 

Quite possible that RM request that anything less than 70 is returned raw and they'll just chunk them in a box for general sale.

[Oldun]

MCM and GovMint started the process years ago. They send a heap off for grading, lump up the premiums on the 70s, slightly less lump up the 69s and flog the rest as raws with regular premiums....

[Simmoleon]

I would expect some of the strongest sales the RM have had recently has been down to the flipping market and they may end up destroying their own future sales by going down this road. The 2 main things I look out for is a decent design (which is a rarity) and low mintage. Then off the back of that you can be confident that the QC of RM at present means many coins will not be a 70. How many of us are surprised now when a new coin arrives from RM and has a problem and needs to go back (or won’t develop milk spots very quickly), its not a shock to me anymore.

So if you are lucky enough to get a strong coin with low mintage and fantastic eye appeal (thanks William Wyon for the Una) then a 70 grade could mean its a valuable coin regardless if you are looking to flip it or keep it in your collection. The RM have made it difficult to do this as they control all of the above and the only thing the collectors had a real control over was getting a coin graded and potentially getting an elusive 70. If RM decide to saturated the market with 70s then it kind of ends the market for modern proofs as that enjoyment has now been taken away as well. 

l predict if RM do this for the limited edition 2oz silver proofs for example we will quickly see an end to the days that seen these sell out in minutes as they have found a way of taking further enjoyment out of the hunt for a top tier coin.

Just find it a bit naughty that the RM put a premium on proofs and state these coins are the best they can mint and have now started grading their own coins via NGC and putting a premium on a premium and guaranteeing you for a price the coin quality they should have been providing in the first place. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

The question is how they are selecting these coins for grading and how NGC deal with bulk grading?

I know you have told us in the past how this bulk grading works.

Will the RM send the whole batch of say 500 coins to NGC and they pick out so many at grade 70 to slab and return the rest?

Or will they grade the required number and then stop looking for any more 70s? Or do the RM pick a number of 70s they require and guess how many coins to send in to achieve this aim?

Will the RM do post production checks and only send in the ones they deem "perfect"?

It will be interesting to see if this new initiative has any effect on the ratio of pf70 and pf69 grading results you observe.

 

I spoke to the head of collecting at the RM this morning and talked over this question. The answer is that before the normal coins are minted the RM will press coins with new dies and review each one manually.  If it looks like a 70 it will be bagged and numbered in the order they come off the press and if it does not meet the grade it will be binned/melted. After this specific production, the regular proofs will be minted. The process used at the moment (that delivers non uniform and often dubious quality) will be kept and so in theory the chance of a 70 from a boxed coin remains the same as before but the population of 70 grade coins WILL be higher due to the RM graded coins and the percentage of the population in 69 will reduce considerably. On this basis the grading game will continue and may escalate as there will be a big value uplift as standard for 70 grade coins and a large RM premium. I can see I will be busier than ever submitting older coins and raw coins of good grade bought direct or via Coin Connection.

 

[MancunianStacker]

In a way the RM are setting the base price for a PF70, not the maximum price. So we can all look at a raw coin and think, if I grade this myself and it comes out 70, I’ve made approx £x based on all PF70s selling at their asking price (maybe even more if they go into storage will collectors). I guess if they don’t sell any, they will start reducing the price until they do start selling perhaps?

It makes sense that the first off the die will be the best coins so depending on the mintage there will be plenty of top grades further down the line. They might be inspecting the planchets in advance too (I assume) to reduce risk in advance.

I wonder if the graded coins will also come with mint box and COA? Low COAs are still in demand e.g. 007 or would each PF70 get the first low COAs too??

Would a Perfect slabbed/encased “dinky” toys without a box be worth the same as one ungraded but in perfect condition with a box? I guess value depends on the buyer.

[Stuntman]

In my opinion, the Royal Mint should not be getting involved with this kind of activity at all.  The same goes for their historical coin sales service.

If there no longer is such a need for large volumes of coinage now that many people and many shops either insist on, or prefer, contactless payments - then reduce the size of the Royal Mint (even selling off the factory and the land, if necessary) and make the workers redundant.  Harsh as that sounds, this is all being funded by the UK taxpayer so if we don't need the service, then let's not keep paying for it.

I love collecting (some) coins  - but this just feels thoroughly inappropriate and wrong.

[AppleZippoandMetronome]

I could see how it would make sense for the new gold coins to still be submitted independently for grading but surely it won't make sense for the new silver coins. They put a premium of £30 for this coin to get the PF70 graded version. What does it cost all in (including shipping, etc) to submit a coin for grading? There is definitely money in it for the golds given the silly premium they've put on that but unless I'm missing something I don't see how it would be worth while for the silver coins provided the premium stays at £30. I guess people could still do it for the learning experience/thrill to see what they get but at that price point if you want the 70 surely you'll just buy the graded one from the RM.

[Simmoleon]

16 minutes ago, MancunianStacker said:

In a way the RM are setting the base price for a PF70, not the maximum price. So we can all look at a raw coin and think, if I grade this myself and it comes out 70, I’ve made approx £x based on all PF70s selling at their asking price (maybe even more if they go into storage will collectors). I guess if they don’t sell any, they will start reducing the price until they do start selling perhaps?

It makes sense that the first off the die will be the best coins so depending on the mintage there will be plenty of top grades further down the line. They might be inspecting the planchets in advance too (I assume) to reduce risk in advance.

I wonder if the graded coins will also come with mint box and COA? Low COAs are still in demand e.g. 007 or would each PF70 get the first low COAs too??

Would a Perfect slabbed/encased “dinky” toys without a box be worth the same as one ungraded but in perfect condition with a box? I guess value depends on the buyer.

Doubt they come with a separate CoA, I believe they are printing the order they came off the press on the label of the slab

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, AppleZippoandMetronome said:

I could see how it would make sense for the new gold coins to still be submitted independently for grading but surely it won't make sense for the new silver coins. They put a premium of £30 for this coin to get the PF70 graded version. What does it cost all in (including shipping, etc) to submit a coin for grading? There is definitely money in it for the golds given the silly premium they've put on that but unless I'm missing something I don't see how it would be worth while for the silver coins provided the premium stays at £30. I guess people could still do it for the learning experience/thrill to see what they get but at that price point if you want the 70 surely you'll just buy the graded one from the RM.

They are not planning to offer it for all releases or all versions within a release

[AndrewSL76]

It will be interesting to see what happens here. They have not sold out yet and it may be that this is a one off. 

In my view, if this devalues anything it is the raw coins. They are effectively saying that they will assess batches of coins for perfection and offer them in slabs but then for raw coins provide a usual minting process where despite you still paying a premium, you get what you get which can be coins with scratches and imperfections from the minting process. What does this say about quality control at the Mint? Surely every coin leaving them should be a 70? Right? Maybe I am missing a point here. Sorry to continue the hyperbole but it's like going to buy a car and being told that you can have one that costs X more but is guaranteed to be perfect, or you can buy one off the normal factory line that may have faulty breaks........

It's late and I am ranting. I have to remind myself, also, that I bought one of these slabs yesterday. 🤣

[Oldun]

36 minutes ago, Numistacker said:

They are not planning to offer it for all releases or all versions within a release

As mentioned earlier, this move has likely been triggered by the realization of how much they lost out on the Engraver Series and why the 2nd release has not been forthcoming.

[Oldun]

59 minutes ago, AndrewSL76 said:

It will be interesting to see what happens here. They have not sold out yet and it may be that this is a one off. 

In my view, if this devalues anything it is the raw coins. They are effectively saying that they will assess batches of coins for perfection and offer them in slabs but then for raw coins provide a usual minting process where despite you still paying a premium, you get what you get which can be coins with scratches and imperfections from the minting process. What does this say about quality control at the Mint? Surely every coin leaving them should be a 70? Right? Maybe I am missing a point here. Sorry to continue the hyperbole but it's like going to buy a car and being told that you can have one that costs X more but is guaranteed to be perfect, or you can buy one off the normal factory line that may have faulty breaks........

It's late and I am ranting. I have to remind myself, also, that I bought one of these slabs yesterday. 🤣

It is absolutely this and what MCM and GovMint have been doing for years. The RM are trying to cut costs by trying to make customers settle for less as if they didn’t buy their perfect 70 or 69 graded coin, then it’s their fault. They say the new process still makes it possible to get a raw coin privately graded at PF70 but those are merely words at this stage.

They are trying to squeeze every single last amount of added value from their coins to maximise profit (fair enough) and screw the customer (poor) under the guise of a better service. 
I will vote with my wallet.

[Oldun]

2 hours ago, Numistacker said:

They are not planning to offer it for all releases or all versions within a release

Only the most desirable and the ones they can get the biggest profit for, right ? 🤣 This means they will be effectively saying, if we, The RM dont bother to grade them, they are not desirable. Too funny.

Anyone want to take a guess at the price of the next Engravers’ Series for. an RM graded PF70 ? This is elitest and drastically decreases the chances of an ordinary collector getting a raw PF70 candidate and drastically increases the number of PF70s that will be available.

Despite assurances the RM have given regarding the process, the ploy is to hugely increase premiums at source and inflate the amount of PF70s at source but only for the ones with value as truly desirable. Amazing lack of thought process there by The RM.

Bad darts.

[ChrisSilver]

On 04/08/2020 at 13:54, Robjw said:

does this also mean they have to pay VAT now on gold coins because they slabbed them, essentially removing the pure gold sale into a product.

Apologies if this has already been answered. Grading a gold coin doesn't add VAT to it, graded gold coins are still VAT exempt (bar a few exceptions that are also applicable to a raw gold coin) 

[ChrisSilver]

5 hours ago, Numistacker said:

I spoke to the head of collecting at the RM this morning and talked over this question. The answer is that before the normal coins are minted the RM will press coins with new dies and review each one manually.  If it looks like a 70 it will be bagged and numbered in the order they come off the press and if it does not meet the grade it will be binned/melted. After this specific production, the regular proofs will be minted. The process used at the moment (that delivers non uniform and often dubious quality) will be kept and so in theory the chance of a 70 from a boxed coin remains the same as before but the population of 70 grade coins WILL be higher due to the RM graded coins and the percentage of the population in 69 will reduce considerably. On this basis the grading game will continue and may escalate as there will be a big value uplift as standard for 70 grade coins and a large RM premium. I can see I will be busier than ever submitting older coins and raw coins of good grade bought direct or via Coin Connection.

Thank you for finding this information out with the RM and sharing.

I can see this only as a good thing for those who collect PF 70 coins, or any grade of graded coin for that matter. 

An opportunity to buy coins already graded, sure some dealers do grade coins but are there a lot of dealers in the UK who currently do this? This may encourage UK dealers to start grading more coins. And mean that certain coins are easier for graded coin collectors to find.

It is quite a nice label design (IMO, though looks are subjective of course) and there are some who like specific labels on their coins or even collect the same coin but in varying labels. I think RM selling graded coins will only increase the popularity of graded coins and those wanting to grade raw coins  

Note the timing of this and the new Graded Only Trade sections on the forum 😉

[watchesandwhisky]

6 hours ago, ChrisSilver said:

Note the timing of this and the new Graded Only Trade sections on the forum 😉

I noticed the timing was a little too coincidental! now please have separate gold and silver selling sections! @ChrisSilver😂

[Stuntman]

If the Royal Mint was a privately-owned institution it could do what it likes.  The merits of its graded coins and historical coin ventures could then be fairly judged by the market.

However, it isn't.  It's funded by the UK taxpayer and its role is mainly to mint coins for circulating currency, partly to mint bullion coins and partly to mint commemoratives and proofs for collectors.  There are already plenty of private businesses offering graded coins and historical coins, we don't need another one funded by the taxpayer and whose prices are generally higher than what you can find elsewhere.

As for the Royal Mint 'losing out' on the first Great Engravers coin - well it's their own stupid fault for setting such low mintage limits and not offering more variants.  There is/was loads of unmet demand for a gold Una - I would love a 1oz bullion version or a quintuple sovereign restrike in BU.  Mint lots more of them and make an acceptable profit from them.  Easy!

 

[GrahamDiamond]

I think the RM will make more Una and the Lion Coins, Not sure when Coinsters.

[Fivepoundfred]

The Royal Mint have a defined acceptable standard for newly minted proof coins and with reference to this standard many coins they issue would not and do not make a 70 grade. 

 Regardless of the standard if you are not happy with the condition of a coin you have the right to return it.

So now it is all change, you can now buy a 70 grade gold Mayflower for a premium of £335 and remove any possible ambiguity. I suspect many will feel that such a premium is far too high and will continue to self grade.

[Kman]

If I were the Royal Mint and producing expensive collectable coins I would say that all coins sold should be perfect, that is the standard

By selling 70s at a higher premium they're admitting their general standards are low

[sovereignsteve]

After market prices of coins such as the Una should not be any concern of the Mint.

This one is an exception and they shouldn't be stressing about having missed out. What were they have supposed to have done, charged 20k for the 2 oz gold? Nobody would have bought them at 10k.

For every success such as this there are dozens of failures.

[Simmoleon]

3 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

After market prices of coins such as the Una should not be any concern of the Mint.

This one is an exception and they shouldn't be stressing about having missed out. What were they have supposed to have done, charged 20k for the 2 oz gold? Nobody would have bought them at 10k.

For every success such as this there are dozens of failures.

They should be asking themselves why Una and the Lion was so successful compared to other releases. The Great Engravers are meant to reflect iconic coins by the greatest artisans to have ever worked at the mint, no disrespect to the current RM engravers but these coins are exceptions as they are works of art in their own right.

This Una coin has done the RM so many favours as in my opinion it’s driven sales of other series off the back of it.

I fully agree they are over thinking this and should not be basing their business model off this one event. RM need to go back to the drawing board and understand why some series fly out the door and others don’t. They need to work on their designs and potentially lower the number of releases and concentrate on quality over quantity. The frustration I have is its clear the RM have the skills to produce fantastic designs but quite often release coins that are trying to be modern/different when its clear that many collectors and the market is still craving the more traditional design of the past or modern classic designs (the next Una).

I appreciate the mint has a number of priorities to manage including making a profit where possible but it seems to be in a famous case of not seeing the woods for the trees and not understanding their customer market.

[TeaTime]

The modern Una &  Lion coin was ok - The hype and hyperbole surrounding it was phenomenal.... 😁

The whole thing is a farce. Either the RM is massively overcharging for a lump of plastic or they are happily admitting that their proof coins are, in general, not up to much in terms of quality.

Either way they appear to be treading the usual line for them.