Help a Newbie!

[Espana123]

Hi everyone,

New to precious metal investing but looking to secure myself for the future as we head into uncertain times....

I live in Spain but am from the UK. I was hoping to invest in Austrian Philharmonic via Muenze Oesterriech (and use their vault service). Have since discovered it's almost impossible to buy online via their site. Can anyone recommend a reputable dealer which we can purchase from in Euro? I thought by going direct to the mint, it would be the safest bet (in terms validity and quality). 

I was hoping to use their vault as it seems the safest option, however perhaps it's better to have the physical in your own hands... what do you suggest? We aren't talking tens of thousands.... just enough as a back up plan. 

Would you also put preference on one particular coin? I assume if i'm purchasing (for example) 1 ounce, it doesnt matter whether it's Britanica, philharmonic or eagle? Or have I misunderstood? 

Finally, we looked at the UK Royal Mint but as it's a government operation - i'm a little concerned that if things were to take a great turn for the worse, the government has an option to seize assets. I realise this may sound a little out there, but i'd prefer to be using a vault that is independant of governments. 

Sorry if this all sounds rather simple for those amongst you with experience. 

Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks so much

 

[5huggy]

Welcome aboard TSF - best place to be, for knowledge , advice and fun in the PM world 

 

54 minutes ago, Espana123 said:

however perhaps it's better to have the physical in your own hands... what do you suggest?

 

IMHO buddy - just remember this - "IF YOU DON'T HOLD IT -YOU DON'T OWN IT!"

You mention vaulting - on several counts , Rmint is government etc , etc - why let someone else "OWN" your "wealth" ????

Stick with dealing dealing with this Forum and get  - - > > 

 

[Smiler999]

Always hold your own Resources, if the world goes tits up you the these vaults are going to hand out the Gold?

[Espana123]

Haha thanks both, yes makes sense. The world is clearly going tits up ahead and with hindsight the vault isn't a great idea. Physical it is.

Any tips on where to purchase from online? I know there's dealers on here so i'll look into that too

 

 

[silverdocket]

1 hour ago, Espana123 said:

Haha thanks both, yes makes sense. The world is clearly going tits up ahead and with hindsight the vault isn't a great idea. Physical it is.

Any tips on where to purchase from online? I know there's dealers on here so i'll look into that too

 

 

Welcome from 🍀 Ireland 🍀.

Usually Dealers prices can be beaten on the forum.

You could try advertising your budget and quantity that you are looking for in The wanted section.

Look at the sellers feedback before buying. I haven't seen anybody have a bad experience with another member yet.

They make a few quid you save a few quid everybody's happy and you have your silver in the matter of days oppose to weeks or months depending on what and where you're buying from.

[Espana123]

5 minutes ago, silverdocket said:

Welcome from 🍀 Ireland 🍀.

Usually Dealers prices can be beaten on the forum.

You could try advertising your budget and quantity that you are looking for in The wanted section.

Look at the sellers feedback before buying. I haven't seen anybody have a bad experience with another member yet.

They make a few quid you save a few quid everybody's happy and you have your silver in the matter of days oppose to weeks or months depending on what and where you're buying from.

Thanks for the tip. I've just found the helpful link http://goldprice.eu5.net/# 

Cheers - I'll do as you suggest. I'm just in the process of weighing up Soveriegn vs Britannia and thinking to go half/half in terms of stacking. Need to research a bit more as coming into this very blind. Super helpful forum though and great way to invest money for the long term that i'd otherwise end up spending

 

[silverdocket]

6 minutes ago, Espana123 said:

Thanks for the tip. I've just found the helpful link http://goldprice.eu5.net/# 

Cheers - I'll do as you suggest. I'm just in the process of weighing up Soveriegn vs Britannia and thinking to go half/half in terms of stacking. Need to research a bit more as coming into this very blind. Super helpful forum though and great way to invest money for the long term that i'd otherwise end up spending

 

It's a good comparison Site.

I'm confident you'll get a better deal here just don't put all your eggs into one basket in terms of purchasing.

[cornishrich]

Hello and welcome to TSF. Being a newbie on forum is great so many helpful and friendly people here. Best of luck 

[Alex944]

Hi Espana,

 

Just my thoughts on your post:

- I would definitely prefer to have your Silver and Gold physically if possible. Apart from the fact that I think physical ownership beats having ''numbers on paper'', it's also just a very enjoyable thing to have a collection to enjoy and to see it grow overtime.

My go-to dealer for the majority of (silver) bullion coins has been the European Mint. They offer free storage for 6 months so you can purchase coins over time and ship it later to save on shipping costs, and their prices are generally quite low compared to other dealers. When it comes to bullion coins, My suggestion would be to just get what you seem to like. I have small numbers of a bunch of bullion coins just so I could find out what I liked most, for example a couple of Britannia's, Krugerrand's,  Philharmonics, etc. The difference is not that big, though you will see that some bullion coins are more expensive than others.

It depends on you and your strategy how much that matters to you. For me, it's generally a long term thing and I want to enjoy what I purchase, so getting coins I like for a bit more than the cheapest bullion coins does not really bother me. 

Lastly, the best advise is to do strong research. Compare prices between dealers, look for some reviews and their reputation and take a decision that makes sense for you.

Best of luck!

Alex

[Notafront4adragon]

Sovereigns vs Britannias, for me sovereigns every time. Almost always lower premiums and better buy back prices from dealers, far easier to sell and recognised all over the world. 

[Espana123]

8 hours ago, Notafront4adragon said:

Sovereigns vs Britannias, for me sovereigns every time. Almost always lower premiums and better buy back prices from dealers, far easier to sell and recognised all over the world. 

Thanks for this, will definitely look more into sovereigns then. It was in fact replacing a sovereign that started me off on journey anyway so i'll stick to learning more about them...

[Espana123]

9 hours ago, Alex944 said:

Hi Espana,

 

Just my thoughts on your post:

- I would definitely prefer to have your Silver and Gold physically if possible. Apart from the fact that I think physical ownership beats having ''numbers on paper'', it's also just a very enjoyable thing to have a collection to enjoy and to see it grow overtime.

My go-to dealer for the majority of (silver) bullion coins has been the European Mint. They offer free storage for 6 months so you can purchase coins over time and ship it later to save on shipping costs, and their prices are generally quite low compared to other dealers. When it comes to bullion coins, My suggestion would be to just get what you seem to like. I have small numbers of a bunch of bullion coins just so I could find out what I liked most, for example a couple of Britannia's, Krugerrand's,  Philharmonics, etc. The difference is not that big, though you will see that some bullion coins are more expensive than others.

It depends on you and your strategy how much that matters to you. For me, it's generally a long term thing and I want to enjoy what I purchase, so getting coins I like for a bit more than the cheapest bullion coins does not really bother me. 

Lastly, the best advise is to do strong research. Compare prices between dealers, look for some reviews and their reputation and take a decision that makes sense for you.

Best of luck!

Alex

Hi Alex,

Very helpful info here especially the European Mint for silver. I also like the idea to buy what im drawn to as opposed to using my logical mind. It'd all be a very long term investment anyway and you're right -  there's no guarantee of anything in life paying off so i might aswell enjoy the collection along the way! 

Cheers

 

[MrTT]

Hello espana

I have read that goldsilver.be is very good.

I ordered my first silver / gold recently from geiger edelmetalle in germany, they have excellent service and are very professional.

[TonyC]

Hi. I also live in Spain and have recently purchased from www.andorrano-joyeria.com/. I am very pleased and will buy from them again. Obviously better for us to deal in Euro.

[silenceissilver]

There are tons of dealers but as you were asking for Philharmonics and buying them from the Austrian Mint, there are two shops in Vienna, I bought from, the first one in person on holiday, the second one just recently online, the delivery was just one day from the Austria to the UK (although it wasn't a Philharmonic, in this case)

https://www.goldundco.at/edelmetallpreise.html

https://goldvorsorge.at/

Here is a list of trustwrothy UK dealers, it's a screenshot from a new price comparison site for the UK, created by a forum member:

A price comparison site for Germany:

https://www.gold-preisvergleich.de/

All the dealers on both sites are reputable. I'm not aware of any such sites for Spain but living there, that would be my first place to go. But I have no clue about the size of the Spanish PM market.

As for what coins you should go for, this also depends on whether you plan to stay in Spain or move back to the UK. Here, Sovereigns are most liquid but it is my understanding they are also relatively big in Spain and in all Mediterranian countries (whereas the Vreneli is the Sovereign of the German speaking countries, in terms of liquidity and probably 20 Fr Latin Monetary Union coins in France and Italy and probably a few more countries). If you want one ounce coins, gold Philharmonics might be more liquid there than Britannias, generally they are on the continent but that doesn't necessarily apply for all countries on the continent. So, first of all, I would find out what is offered a lot in Spain and take it from there. If you don't know if you will go back to the UK, obviously a mix of coins that are most liquid here and there might be worth a consideration.

There is also a list of dealers on in this forum:

 

 

 

[Espana123]

18 hours ago, silenceissilver said:

As for what coins you should go for, this also depends on whether you plan to stay in Spain or move back to the UK. Here, Sovereigns are most liquid but it is my understanding they are also relatively big in Spain and in all Mediterranian countries (whereas the Vreneli is the Sovereign of the German speaking countries, in terms of liquidity and probably 20 Fr Latin Monetary Union coins in France and Italy and probably a few more countries). If you want one ounce coins, gold Philharmonics might be more liquid there than Britannias, generally they are on the continent but that doesn't necessarily apply for all countries on the continent. So, first of all, I would find out what is offered a lot in Spain and take it from there. If you don't know if you will go back to the UK, obviously a mix of coins that are most liquid here and there might be worth a consideration.

 

Thanks for the info Silence, you've hit the nail on the head with the valid point about which coins to go for, dependant on where we will live longer term. That is a big issue for us and why we originally thought the Philharmonic would suit best. We have lived world over for the last 15 years. Next year we head to Asia, then after we'll most likely be in Aus or NZ for some time. We've decided to start with British coins sticking to Britannia, Queens Beasts (for the novelty factor of encouraging us to collect the set as an incentive) and a few Sovereigns. However, i'm aware we would probably also be wise to then move onto a mix of everything from everywhere! Seeing as we're British nationality and have our families in the UK, it'd always be easy to arrange sale of coins if needed in emergency. The idea is a long term investment and not exactly to make money - just secure some of it for when the financial system breaks down...

[Espana123]

20 hours ago, TonyC said:

Hi. I also live in Spain and have recently purchased from www.andorrano-joyeria.com/. I am very pleased and will buy from them again. Obviously better for us to deal in Euro.

Thanks Tony, good to know there's a reliable option here in Spain. Can't say i'd trust many of my local coin dealers where I live on the coast...

[Seth]

On 29/06/2020 at 18:43, Espana123 said:

Hi everyone,

New to precious metal investing but looking to secure myself for the future as we head into uncertain times....

I live in Spain but am from the UK. I was hoping to invest in Austrian Philharmonic via Muenze Oesterriech (and use their vault service). Have since discovered it's almost impossible to buy online via their site. Can anyone recommend a reputable dealer which we can purchase from in Euro? I thought by going direct to the mint, it would be the safest bet (in terms validity and quality). 

I was hoping to use their vault as it seems the safest option, however perhaps it's better to have the physical in your own hands... what do you suggest? We aren't talking tens of thousands.... just enough as a back up plan. 

Would you also put preference on one particular coin? I assume if i'm purchasing (for example) 1 ounce, it doesnt matter whether it's Britanica, philharmonic or eagle? Or have I misunderstood? 

Finally, we looked at the UK Royal Mint but as it's a government operation - i'm a little concerned that if things were to take a great turn for the worse, the government has an option to seize assets. I realise this may sound a little out there, but i'd prefer to be using a vault that is independant of governments. 

Sorry if this all sounds rather simple for those amongst you with experience. 

Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks so much

 

I would avoid vaulting your precious metals like the plague, I opened a vaulted account with the Royal Mint earlier this year - I can give you rough dates if you want I posted about my experience with them here in the ''General Precious Metals'' section, and to say that I was less than impressed with them and leaning towards going postal and fire bombing them would be an understatement.  In short I had no problems opening an account with them, adding funds to my account, and even buying gold for storage ..... for all of about a week at most.  Then for close enough to a month to call it a month I couldn't access my account under any circumstances, no matter the device I used or the location I tried to access my account from, this was apparently due to the Royal Mint preforming some behind the scenes work on their websites - their collectable coin website and their bullion website both at the same time, as well as them merging both these websites together.  Since I've been able to regain access to my account - after the Royal Mint finished with their unannounced planned closing of both sites nor for how long both sites would be down for, for behind the scenes work and the merging of both sites, everytime I want to log into my account now, I have to go throught the laborious and P.I.T.A. process of not just reseting my user name and password, but also calling the Royal Mint to prove my identity and un freeze my account, and this is not down to me forgeting my username or password - I have tried both with and without password managers and even several different password managers, it's a still on going problem with the Royal Mint's side handling of user names and passwords, I've spoken to quite a few people now who have had and are still having the same issues as me, thus limiting acces to my account to basically office hours, not quite ''the ability to buy and sell precious metal 24/7 365 days a year'' that was advertised and promised yet alone close to it.  Now if @LawrenceChard is not only able to take and fill orders from both his old website and his new website at the same time while shifting the focus from his old website to his new website with his customers not noticing or being effected - I've ordered throught both within a very short period of time, there is simply no exuse for a company like the Royal Mint not to be able to allow customers access to their accounts while they do behind the scences work on their websites and merge them, they sure as hell have a far far bigger I.T. team and budget.

Something else to think about, governments don't just know about bank safety deposit boxes - granted they know the safety boxes exists and how many there are in each location but they don't know the contents, they also have all of this information about privately owned and run safety deposit boxes and have gone so far as to empty every single privetly run and owned safety deposit box from one company's location of safety boxes - it happened in the U.K. recently I can't remember the company's name but it wasn't a bank, and the police went so far as to confiscate the contents of every single safety deposit box under P.O.C.A. - the Proceeds Of Crime Act where you are automatically presumed to be guilty until you can prove your innocence - something that's impossible to do without a lot of both legal help and help from an accountant specifically a forensic accountant and is not covered by Legal Aid, now there where a few thousands safety deposit boxes emptied, only 4 contained anything naughty, and they have charged the people involved with those 4 safety deposit boxes - one of them turned out to be somebody involved in the running of the safety deposit box company (one of the directors?) I think he was the person keeping a gun in a safety deposit box, but the users of all the other safety deposit boxes that the police forced open and confiscated the contents from are being treated like crimminals and are being forced at considerable expense to themselve to prove that not only is the property that they had stored in the safety deposit boxes that they where renting not only legally belonging to then, but that they obtained it legally, and with money that was legally earned and had taxes paid on it, something that's next to impossible to do for something like your late grandmothers wedding ring for example, unsurprisingly most renters of these safety deposit boxes have been unable to reclaim their property as far as I'm aware - it was just starting to go through the legal process of taking the police to court before the COVID-19 thing started.  This is just one example of a government confiscating privately run safety deposit boxes being used by ordinary law abiding citizens, in fact this case is very very easy to look up as it's still on going, one ruling on it has already been made - not in the police's favour, the police screwed up - they mixed the contents of everybodies safety deposit boxes together instead of keeping them seperated once they had charged the 4 naughty people, because safety deposit boxes tend to be favoured among certain minority groups they have launched a class action law suit, and their political advocates, groups, representatives and even public figures have gotten involved and been very vocal about it, and lastly because these where insured safety deposit boxes and the insurer is refusing to pay out these people are also taking the insurance company to court - the insurance company I believe is refusing to pay out on the grounds that the boxes and they're contents where confiscated under P.O.C.A. so until the rightful owners can prove their innocence as far as the insurance company is concerned they used their safety deposit boxes to store ill gotten gains/ illegal stuff inside the safety deposi boxes and voided the terms of their insurance.

Because of my experience with vaulted precious meals, and the number of horror stories I've heard about vaulted storage and safety deposit boxes from all over the world, these two rules have really been drumed into my precious metals purchasing:

1, If you dont hold it, you don't own it.

2, Possession is 9/10ths of the law

Sure it is going to cost a few extra quid to take physical delivery of your precious metals - it actually works out to cost about the same once you take storage fees into account, for the peace of mind in knowing that you actually have and own the precious metal that you've worked, saved up for, and paid for, it's more than worth it in my opinion.

[silenceissilver]

5 hours ago, Espana123 said:

Thanks for the info Silence, you've hit the nail on the head with the valid point about which coins to go for, dependant on where we will live longer term. That is a big issue for us and why we originally thought the Philharmonic would suit best. We have lived world over for the last 15 years. Next year we head to Asia, then after we'll most likely be in Aus or NZ for some time. We've decided to start with British coins sticking to Britannia, Queens Beasts (for the novelty factor of encouraging us to collect the set as an incentive) and a few Sovereigns. However, i'm aware we would probably also be wise to then move onto a mix of everything from everywhere! Seeing as we're British nationality and have our families in the UK, it'd always be easy to arrange sale of coins if needed in emergency. The idea is a long term investment and not exactly to make money - just secure some of it for when the financial system breaks down...

For Asia keep in mind, in large parts of it they prefer pure gold rather than 22K gold. Krugerrands and Sovereigns might be an exception though. Maybe someone else here knows more about it. Britannias and Philharmonics are both made of pure gold, anyway. Sovereigns are 22K as you certainly know.

Also, in case you want to sell them in a different country, you should get to know if there is a capital gains tax. In the UK, Brtiannias and Sovereigns are exempt. I know in Germany there is no capital gains tax on any gold if you can show you owned it for at least a year. When I bought in Austria and asked in the shop, they claimed there was no capital gains tax on gold whatsoever, but it wasn't 100 percent convincing, rather like a part of a sales objection handling. But maybe that was just my flawed impression, maybe they were right.

In Australia as far as I know, there are different taxes for gold items over and under 90% purity, so 22K should be fine. But I don't know any details about it. Obviously in Australia Kangaroos would be a good option but I'd certainly assume Sovereigns and maybe also Britannias to be very liquid there.

In case you mean Japan with Asia, Philharmonics are very popular there.

Then of course, if you want to take your gold with you from country to country, you need to check if there are restrictions, or import duties.

Then of course, this is also affected by how much you want to buy, I think under 10K there is no import duty in the UK but others might know for sure. Single ounce orders/taking them with me on the airport was no issue, entering the UK.

How do you want to sell? If you only want to sell a certain amount a year or if you don't buy so many that you might make a nominal profit of I think currently 12, 13 K, the capital gains tax in the UK plays no role for you (unless there is hyperinflation where you profit so much nominally that even a half sovereigns makes you fall under the 12K profit limit, in case it doesn't keep up at all with the hyperinflation).

Then of course there is the question, is it illegal to bring gold out of the country and e.g. sell it somewhere where there is no capital gains tax? I don't know.

You know best but it might be worth going for a mix of Britannias, Sovereigns, Kangaroos and Philharmonics (depending on your total spending, of course).

Having someone else storing them for you can be tricky, see the post above. But even if it's your own family and things get bad, it might be your own family that steals it. This happens quite often, it seems. They are also likely to not see it as stealing but to justify it and maybe even blame you of being egoistic. "How can you not care about your poor "family member", you have no clue how bad things really got here, I had no choice, blah blah, blah blah"

I think you might be a candidate for burying the somewhere ?

😀

[LawrenceChard]

4 hours ago, Seth said:

 Now if @LawrenceChard is not only able to take and fill orders from both his old website and his new website at the same time while shifting the focus from his old website to his new website with his customers not noticing or being effected - I've ordered throught both within a very short period of time, there is simply no exuse for a company like the Royal Mint not to be able to allow customers access to their accounts while they do behind the scences work on their websites and merge them, they sure as hell have a far far bigger I.T. team and budget.

 

Thanks, @Seth for the favourable mention.

I am not surprised you didn't enjoy "Royal Mint Experience".

They also charge more for their coins, more for their storage, and pay you much less if you sell back to them. They are also not very transparent about their buy-back prices, which should be of concern to anybody using them.

While I am sure their storage is now secure, they have had thefts from their premises on at least 2 occasions which I know of as they in the public domain.

I understand your viewpoint about storage. One counterpoint is security and insurance cost at home. Yesterday we had an enquiry from someone who was asking could we recommend an insurer for his home stored coins. My first response to our staff member was try his own home insurer first, but he had already tried. We gave them the name of one broker, but not with any great enthusiasm.

Our customer storage charge is lower than the premium we used to pay for our stock insurance before we moved to Harrowside and installed 2 high security vaults.

 

[LawrenceChard]

On 29/06/2020 at 18:43, Espana123 said:

Would you also put preference on one particular coin? I assume if i'm purchasing (for example) 1 ounce, it doesnt matter whether it's Britanica, philharmonic or eagle? Or have I misunderstood? 

 

As we were mentioned in one response, I will add our advice:

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/investing-in-gold/72/3341

It is just one of our many advice pages.

I just noticed it fails to say:

"Our general advice is to buy at the lowest premium within reason."

But that should be added soon.

 

[sovereignsteve]

2 hours ago, Seth said:

Possession is 9/10ths of the law

I would say more like 999/1000😉

[Roy]

Where you live and what coins are popular is irrelevant really.

Where you will sell is more important.

If you are buying gold as an insurance, a hedge with potential gains then I'd suggest buying CGT exempt coins and storing them in your home country (UK). You can keep them with family and friends or pay for secure storage. I choose both.

The bulk of my stash is in secure storage. I appreciate the potential risks as mentioned earlier and I'm ok with it. Smaller portions are left with family and friends; these portions are what I'd call the most liquid and can be liquidated if need be without too much trouble or knowledge (HGM etc.). If you need money call a friend, ask them to make a trade and get the cash in your bank account in a short time.

I trust (love) these people and if they need my help, then it's there to use.

 

I don't recommend travelling with gold in Asia, certainly not the Philippines or Vietnam, I don't know about Thailand. The import limits are low and strictly enforced. If you declare the gold, they will take it and if you don't, they will find it and take it. If you must carry some gold as insurance then buy jewellery and wear it.

Keep your gold in your home country, it may not be perfect but it can be worse. Gold corrupts absolutely.

Me? I use bitcoin 😊

 

[Roy]

Another idea, believe me I researched this before my move.

Chards offer a storage service. It's a reasonable charge.

You could buy coins from there at your leisure and store them. The best bit is you can also sell to them from your security box! Their rates are really good.

I tested this last year. I bought and held. Prices rose and I called them to sell. It was that easy, cash in account the next day or so.

You can buy as an overseas customer and it's hands-off selling, ideal for a traveller.

https://www.chards.co.uk/

[LawrenceChard]

On 30/06/2020 at 08:02, Espana123 said:

Haha thanks both, yes makes sense. The world is clearly going tits up ahead and with hindsight the vault isn't a great idea. Physical it is.

Any tips on where to purchase from online? I know there's dealers on here so i'll look into that too

 

Many people buy from Mints, possibly thinking that direct will be cheaper, or safer; it's rather like the old adage "Nobody Gets Fired For Buying IBM".

You may think as a dealer, I would push the meltdown, tits up mantra, but I don't like to add to the hysteria.

Talking of "tits up":

Old Pennies and Hazel

This is Hazel Rose sitting on her assets!