Auction Mobility - Illegal House Bidding

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

Would that just be on any one particular auction or every one? ie does the house have a permanent paddle number?

Would these "passed" items be marked as such, enabling one to spot the offending paddle?

In any case, if the house paddle isn't specified as such before an auction, it is still effectively acting in a covert way.

They would not be marked as sold. I am not 100% clear but the discussion above seems to say under the SOGA 2009 that auctions can if they specifically say they allow it cater for one person to bid as a house or seller level bidder. I experienced this when i tried to buy something with no previous bids and i was immediately outbid by the house 3 times. Its not a good way to do it and is frustrating for buyers. Better to start at the price you would be prepared to sell at or not have a reserve and trust to the market

[1817Karl]

5 hours ago, Numistacker said:

On the Auction mobility platform it is very clear when house bids are being made as the paddle number will be the same for all of the passed items. Not a bad idea to take a note of the winning paddle number and see if this keeps winning but losing.

Russell, are you saying that on this platform the house is bidding and if so under what circumstances! 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, 1817Karl said:

Russell, are you saying that on this platform the house is bidding and if so under what circumstances! 

No Bids - I was first bidder in pre-bidding at the opening bid and immediately i was outbid. I bid again twice and would only have been successful it seems once a certain price had been bid.

[Clens92]

12 minutes ago, Numistacker said:

No Bids - I was first bidder in pre-bidding at the opening bid and immediately i was outbid. I bid again twice and would only have been successful it seems once a certain price had been bid.

Pretty much a textbook definition of shill bidding there. 

If there is no underbidder, the house cannot bid up - albeit I accept that the auctioneer can notify the bidder that they are bidding under reserve and can ask them if they want to bid against the reserve itself (mostly a small auction house thing). 

[TheGoldSovereign]

13 hours ago, 1817Karl said:

Russell, are you saying that on this platform the house is bidding and if so under what circumstances! 

Karl that is the whole point of my post, yes they are bidding it is done automatically by the software if the auction house turns on the feature. I have spoken with Auction Mobility on numerous occasions about the feature. It exists because in some states/countries believe it or not it is actually legal to bid on your own lots. This seems like a technical loophole even for those locations.

In the UK however as already pointed out it is illegal so shouldn't be used. Of course it may be hard to prove but there is quite a simple way to know by looking at post-auction catalogue and your bid history.

You are effectively bidding against the consignor. 🤣🤮

 

note: I disagree at this point without seeing more evidence that the lots are then "PASSED", unless this is another feature that has since been enabled. My experience is the lot is shown as "SOLD" during the live auctions and then post-auction it changes to "ENDED".

For me this has an even greater impact by falsely increasing the so called "market price" of coins, because as I've already said a market price can only be achieved by two genuine participants. Sure this is great for the sellers and dealers of the world but not so good for us collectors.

 

note 2: If I can be bothered I will write a script to monitor the live auctions and detect patterns of potential house bidding, it shouldn't be so difficult as I don't suspect that Auction Mobility created this feature to be used in such a fashion, and therefore unlikely have a variable in place for "time to place bid after previous bid" so to speak. In this case the speed of bidding may be easy to detect house bids. If anyone is interested in this PM me!

[sovereignsteve]

1 hour ago, TheGoldSovereign said:

For me this has an even greater impact by falsely increasing the so called "market price" of coins, because as I've already said a market price can only be achieved by two genuine participants. Sure this is great for the sellers and dealers of the world but not so good for us collectors.

This has an effect on the perceived market prices of individual coins but will also have a more subtle effect on the rest of the auction if several hammer prices are artificially affected by house bidding early on. I find early hammer prices can influence bidders' expectations and thus their bids for the remainder of the lots.

[lxy70713]

On 29/06/2020 at 14:05, TheGoldSovereign said:

This is under review, because suddenly their conscience for defrauding people got the better of them, or because someone like me kicked up a fuss and brought it to people's attention?

Feel free to defend away, if it comes to it I will make a much more interesting thread at a later date.

I found the same problem. When I was the first bidder on a coin, and the system automatic bidding against me. I have spoken to the co-owner of the auction, and suggest to start the auction price at the reserve, if they are cerntain coins have reserve price. Let us see if there is any improvement in their 3rd auction, I believe they are trying to find the best way work out for both sellers and buyers.

[lxy70713]

On 30/06/2020 at 11:32, AndrewSL76 said:

Does anyone know what the 'hammer' price was for the 1819 sovereign? That is now listed as being passed too. Bizarre that someone would consign a coin like that to an auction house like this. You would think the owner would be wanting a bit of publicity and awareness... very strange.......

The answer is the auction house own the 1819 Sovereign as well as some old proof sovereign. Most of their common coins do not have a reserve. As it is 0% BP auction same as TCC. So seller do not want to sell their coins at lose, due to lack of audience. That is why quite a few coins did not sell in Auction 1&2. 

[silverdocket]

Any decent auction house will set a reserve price and an estimated guide price.

Either have a reserve starting point or no reserve everything else is just dishonest in my opinion.

One particular auction I attend

Clearly state that they bid on behalf of the seller until the reserve is met.

Once the reserve is met they clearly stated it.