Jump to content
  • The above Banner is a Sponsored Banner.

    Upgrade to Premium Membership to remove this Banner & All Google Ads. For full list of Premium Member benefits Click HERE.

  • Join The Silver Forum

    The Silver Forum is one of the largest and best loved silver and gold precious metals forums in the world, established since 2014. Join today for FREE! Browse the sponsor's topics (hidden to guests) for special deals and offers, check out the bargains in the members trade section and join in with our community reacting and commenting on topic posts. If you have any questions whatsoever about precious metals collecting and investing please join and start a topic and we will be here to help with our knowledge :) happy stacking/collecting. 21,000+ forum members and 1 million+ forum posts. For the latest up to date stats please see the stats in the right sidebar when browsing from desktop. Sign up for FREE to view the forum with reduced ads. 

Auction Mobility - Illegal House Bidding


Recommended Posts

So I just wanted to put this out there immediately for those who aren't aware, and I will update as things progress with my discussions with auction houses and the software company themselves.

Auction Mobility provides online bidding services for quite a few numismatic auction houses, and recently I was shocked to find that I wasn't bidding against real bidders like those of you here, but the house and the consignors themselves.

This software has a 100% illegal feature, here in the UK at least, and that is called "House Bidding". What this does is allows the auctioneer to set a "hidden reserve" on every single lot. When a genuine bidder places a bid on the platform if this bid is below the set hidden reserve, the software will then place a bid for the house as if it was another genuine bidder!!

Nowhere in the auction logs does it say this is coming from the house themselves, in fact it logs the bid as another paddle bid!!

On top of this, when the lot then sells to the house, it says "SOLD" during the live auction, but post-auction the lot just says "ENDED", this means the house has won their own lot, and likely it will be for sale elsewhere or again in another auction in the future.

I urge all of you to check the auctions you have bid on in the past using this software, to see if the lots you've bid on in fact sold, or just ended. You are all being run up by the auction house and a computer, this doesn't sit well with me at all being a regular bidder, likely I have overpaid 1000s on items because of this.

As I say at this point I won't mention any specific auction house until they have formally replied, but this does not have any place in the industry and bidders need to vote with their feet at the very least, if not take legal action against them for any potential losses.

The Gold Sovereign

The Gold Sovereign aims to provide the most complete online resource to collectors of the world's most popular gold coin - the Sovereign.

www.thegoldsovereign.com    |    contact@thegoldsovereign.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 58
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I have been discussing this on the Numi Facebook groups though not in such an incendiary way. I am not at all sure of the merits of mentioning “illegal “ and “auction mobility” Features in software exist because they are demanded. 

Reserves seem to be a major issue. buyers do not want to bid against a reserve and sellers do not want to consign without a reserve. without both parties being happy there are NO auctions.

in my view either have a published estimate with the reserve being the lower estimate or start the auction at the reserve. I have bid at major auctions with floor bidding and there for example BSJ lots are started below the estimate and pass if they do not meet the reserve. 
 

Normal everyday coins do not require reserves. However, specialist coins with fewer buyers do need reserves to ensure fair play. 
 

I totally disagree with the OP who says he has overpaid for thousands of lots. He has paid the fair market price but has not been allowed to under buy and that is fair for him and fair for the seller.

A more interesting question is where dealers can buy stock cheaply enough to resell and make money. In this era of perfect information and competition wholesale and retail have become blurred. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, Numistacker said:

Normal everyday coins do not require reserves. However, specialist coins with fewer buyers do need reserves to ensure fair play. 

I totally disagree with the OP who says he has overpaid for thousands of lots. He has paid the fair market price but has not been allowed to under buy and that is fair for him and fair for the seller.

First point, simple solution is start at reserve.  That might not get the bidding started if its high but its transparent.  Second point i really dont understand, prices are allowed to go down.  If the only reason a bid has reached a level is due to house or consignors bids, its shady or illegal and has no place in a fair market. If a reserve isn't met system should just say so. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The main issue here as I see it is that the hidden reserve isnt being mentioned, bidders think its a no reserve item, increasing chances of more bids. Its shady. Set a reserve is the best way to be clear. 

New Forum Sponsor! See Items for sale here  Also on Instagram: Bargain Numismatics 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While this does seem questionable as presented (and I've not looked into it so taking things at face value here) I have to say...  if anyone is overpaying for lots at auction it is still 100% their own fault. The only sensible way to participate in an auction is to set a price you're willing to pay and walk away from the lot if/when the price goes over that. The reality is a system like this would only be able to work because people don't do that and wilfully keep bidding up spending much more than they should be.

Personaly responsibility folks. I know its not fashionable these days but it is what it is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All Auctions have been manipulated for decades.... Friends business partners bidding on the same items to drive up the price.

How do I beat this.

I set my own reserve on each item and I won't pay one penny more.

Anything below my reserve is a bonus.

it would be nice to pick up the coins here if you could do a deal with the seller going on past sales and split the fees.

Don't get me started on housing estate agents..... 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There should be no hidden reserve under any circumstances, all should be transparent and declared. If someone has purchased a coin and paid more than they would have done without a  hidden reserve they have been deceived regardless of the coin value or if it is was a fair deal or not ! 

Maybe if you intend to bid on a specific coin you could ask the auction house if there is a hidden reserve before you bid and then decide if you wish to continue ?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems that many auction houses will set a reserve (not set by the vendor) typically at 80% of the low estimate - also often used as the starting price and may also state this in their terms. Some auction houses actually specify a starting price which is useful - although for some auction houses some of these starting prices are very high and these auctions usually have lots of unsold lots as a result!

It sometimes means a coin appears 3 or 4 times always at a slightly lower opening bid than the previous sale before they sell - I am hoping a couple of such coins re-appear over the next few months as the orginal starting price was having a laugh :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lets look at the various auctions

EBAY - Reserves can be set but the amount of the reserve is not disclosed. Setting one means final fees even if the item does not sell at the rate of the reserve. Reserves mean bidding is almost always less than otherwise.

Heritage - Reserves can be set but Heritage MAY refuse to sell a lot with a reserve for a low value item or if the reserve is set too high. Auction houses DO NOT want reserves as they are a pain in the backside for them as they have to put all the work in and may not get a sale. If an item has a reserve then it will be unsold and available after the auction at the lowest estimate (usually the reserve) and plus BP. A few weeks prior to the auction minimum bids are replaced online with the lower estimate (the reserve) AND new bidding needs to be above that rate. Early bidding can be below the reserve. (custom platform)

BSJ - Generally coins have no bids so are unsold or passed. I am sure I have also noticed coins being sold to house if they have a reserve too but i will watch more closely next time. (auction mobility platform)

Spink - The reserve is generally the lower estimate but not all coins with a lower estimate also have a reserve. (Auction mobility platform)

Coin Cabinet - If anyone wants to consign to CC via me they should talk to me about a reserve (mostly i do not recommend reserves unless specialist) but reserves will be taken and agreed generally if needed. CC does not provide estimates or disclose reserves publicly but prices start for most PM based coins at 80% of the PM price. Clearly a 10,000 coin with 1oz of gold is not going to sell at spot plus 10% so buyers should bid accordingly (auction Mobility platform) 

Coins of the Realm - do accept reserves from consignors and do not give estimates. At present reserves are estimated and the system will bid against an online bidder up to the point of the reserve (this is under review as the company is only at Auction 2 this past saturday)

What is clear is that each company does something different even within the features of the same platform and so as other posters have said - set the price you want to pay and stick to that price. If others want to pay more thats up to them.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, SilverTanner said:

It seems that many auction houses will set a reserve (not set by the vendor) typically at 80% of the low estimate - also often used as the starting price and may also state this in their terms. Some auction houses actually specify a starting price which is useful - although for some auction houses some of these starting prices are very high and these auctions usually have lots of unsold lots as a result!

It sometimes means a coin appears 3 or 4 times always at a slightly lower opening bid than the previous sale before they sell - I am hoping a couple of such coins re-appear over the next few months as the orginal starting price was having a laugh :D

I bought an 1831 proof maundy set at DNW for £600. It was on sale third time. First time was £1200-£1500 estimate, next £800-£1200 estimate and third time £600 to £800. When it was graded it came back as NOT proof so the gradually reducing estimate should have set alarm bells. I returned it for a refund and the next auction should have a nicely graded set of 1831 maundy at £200 to £600 if anyone is interested

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Numistacker said:

I have been discussing this on the Numi Facebook groups though not in such an incendiary way. I am not at all sure of the merits of mentioning “illegal “ and “auction mobility” Features in software exist because they are demanded. 

Reserves seem to be a major issue. buyers do not want to bid against a reserve and sellers do not want to consign without a reserve. without both parties being happy there are NO auctions.

in my view either have a published estimate with the reserve being the lower estimate or start the auction at the reserve. I have bid at major auctions with floor bidding and there for example BSJ lots are started below the estimate and pass if they do not meet the reserve. 
 

Normal everyday coins do not require reserves. However, specialist coins with fewer buyers do need reserves to ensure fair play. 
 

I totally disagree with the OP who says he has overpaid for thousands of lots. He has paid the fair market price but has not been allowed to under buy and that is fair for him and fair for the seller.

A more interesting question is where dealers can buy stock cheaply enough to resell and make money. In this era of perfect information and competition wholesale and retail have become blurred. 

I've no idea why you would even begin to defend this feature, this is not a demanded feature and is not at all required in this implementation. Most likely Auction Mobility management are totally ignorant to how this can be abused. I have so far had a few conversations with them and they quite literally have no idea how it can be abused, its shocking.

If you have a reserve YOU MUST DECLARE IT, there is no ifs or buts here, it must be visible so the bidder can make an informed decision, transparency is key.

You even then go on to say that normal practice is to pass on lots whereby the reserve isn't being met, you wouldn't expect the auctioneer in a floor only saleroom to just keep ghost bidding you, would you?

I totally disagree with your comment about me overpaying 1000s, you have no idea what I have and haven't bid on and with what auctioneers. Just because I may have more money to throw at lots does no way make that fair market value. If I wasn't bidding against software I could have easily saved 1000s, sure I may not have won the lots at all, but how dare you claim and be so ignorant to say this makes lots sell for market value.

THERE IS NO MARKET PRICE IF THERE IS A HIDDEN RESERVE.

The Gold Sovereign

The Gold Sovereign aims to provide the most complete online resource to collectors of the world's most popular gold coin - the Sovereign.

www.thegoldsovereign.com    |    contact@thegoldsovereign.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, ilovesilverireallydo said:

The main issue here as I see it is that the hidden reserve isnt being mentioned, bidders think its a no reserve item, increasing chances of more bids. Its shady. Set a reserve is the best way to be clear. 

It's not just shady, its outright fraud.

The Gold Sovereign

The Gold Sovereign aims to provide the most complete online resource to collectors of the world's most popular gold coin - the Sovereign.

www.thegoldsovereign.com    |    contact@thegoldsovereign.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Fivepoundfred said:

Maybe if you intend to bid on a specific coin you could ask the auction house if there is a hidden reserve before you bid and then decide if you wish to continue ?

 

I did once ask an auction house if there was a reserve on a coin. The answer?  "Yes but we are not going to tell you what it is."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, AppleZippoandMetronome said:

While this does seem questionable as presented (and I've not looked into it so taking things at face value here) I have to say...  if anyone is overpaying for lots at auction it is still 100% their own fault. The only sensible way to participate in an auction is to set a price you're willing to pay and walk away from the lot if/when the price goes over that. The reality is a system like this would only be able to work because people don't do that and wilfully keep bidding up spending much more than they should be.

Personaly responsibility folks. I know its not fashionable these days but it is what it is.

That is ridiculous, plain and simple.

Please everyone do not get hooked up on the potential lost savings that I mentioned, that wasn't the takeaway point here, and I can afford to overpay, many others cannot.

Just because people may be happy to part with an amount, doesn't mean they should have to. They should be paying market value discovered by two genuine bidders, not by a forced price set by the seller.



Added 0 minutes later...
1 minute ago, Seasider said:

I did once ask an auction house if there was a reserve on a coin. The answer?  "Yes but we are not going to tell you what it is."

That's fine, but I bet they didn't run you up and if the reserve wasn't met the lot was passed, right?

The Gold Sovereign

The Gold Sovereign aims to provide the most complete online resource to collectors of the world's most popular gold coin - the Sovereign.

www.thegoldsovereign.com    |    contact@thegoldsovereign.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Fivepoundfred said:

There should be no hidden reserve under any circumstances, all should be transparent and declared. If someone has purchased a coin and paid more than they would have done without a  hidden reserve they have been deceived regardless of the coin value or if it is was a fair deal or not ! 

Maybe if you intend to bid on a specific coin you could ask the auction house if there is a hidden reserve before you bid and then decide if you wish to continue ?

 

Bang on, someone with some morals finally.

The Gold Sovereign

The Gold Sovereign aims to provide the most complete online resource to collectors of the world's most popular gold coin - the Sovereign.

www.thegoldsovereign.com    |    contact@thegoldsovereign.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Numistacker said:

Coins of the Realm - do accept reserves from consignors and do not give estimates. At present reserves are estimated and the system will bid against an online bidder up to the point of the reserve (this is under review as the company is only at Auction 2 this past saturday)

This is under review, because suddenly their conscience for defrauding people got the better of them, or because someone like me kicked up a fuss and brought it to people's attention?

Feel free to defend away, if it comes to it I will make a much more interesting thread at a later date.

The Gold Sovereign

The Gold Sovereign aims to provide the most complete online resource to collectors of the world's most popular gold coin - the Sovereign.

www.thegoldsovereign.com    |    contact@thegoldsovereign.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, TheGoldSovereign said:

I've no idea why you would even begin to defend this feature, this is not a demanded feature and is not at all required in this implementation. Most likely Auction Mobility management are totally ignorant to how this can be abused. I have so far had a few conversations with them and they quite literally have no idea how it can be abused, its shocking.

If you have a reserve YOU MUST DECLARE IT, there is no ifs or buts here, it must be visible so the bidder can make an informed decision, transparency is key.

You even then go on to say that normal practice is to pass on lots whereby the reserve isn't being met, you wouldn't expect the auctioneer in a floor only saleroom to just keep ghost bidding you, would you?

I totally disagree with your comment about me overpaying 1000s, you have no idea what I have and haven't bid on and with what auctioneers. Just because I may have more money to throw at lots does no way make that fair market value. If I wasn't bidding against software I could have easily saved 1000s, sure I may not have won the lots at all, but how dare you claim and be so ignorant to say this makes lots sell for market value.

THERE IS NO MARKET PRICE IF THERE IS A HIDDEN RESERVE.

You are attacking something in a way that I feel is inappropriate and that is why I would begin to defend it.  I am not saying its really right but I am trying to give you and others reading this post a partial explanation of the topic as i see it as each auction house has very carefully looked at this and tried to work out what is best for them, for buyers and for sellers and none of these discussions will have been an off the cuff lets screw the buyers  - do you think seriously that's how these sometimes very large businesses behave?  

Lets look at DNW

14 Reserves
The seller shall be entitled to place, prior to the first day of the auction, a reserve at or below the low estimate on any lot provided that the low estimate is more than £100. Such reserve being the minimum ‘hammer price’ at which that lot may be treated as sold. A reserve once placed by the seller shall not be changed without the consent of DNW. DNW may at their option sell at a ‘hammer price’ below the reserve but in any such cases the sale proceeds to which the seller is entitled shall be the same as they would have been had the sale been at the reserve. Where a reserve has been placed, only the auctioneer may bid on behalf of the seller.

Reserves are accepted but NOT disclosed

Lets look at BSJ

6. Reserves

The seller shall be entitled to place a reserve on any lot which has a minimum value of £100, being the minimum hammer price at which that lot may be treated as sold. A reserve once placed by the seller shall not be changed without the consent of St James’s Auctions. Where a reserve exceeds the published estimate St James’s Auctions may, at their discretion, withdraw the lot from sale. Where a reserve has been placed, St James’s Auctions may, on behalf of the seller, bid up to that reserve. A reserve must be received by the Auctioneers at least one week prior to the date of sale. Any unsold lots with reserves set in excess of that suggested by the management will be charged 6% of the reserve.

Reserves are accepted but not disclosed and attract a 6% charge to the consigner

The only auction house i have seen showing the reserve is Heritage are there others?

Market Value?

You call me ignorant? Not really a very nice thing to say to be honest but what is market value? Its the price buyers and sellers meet to establish value and price? A buyer must be prepared to pay and a seller must be prepared to sell. In a coin auction it must be over the reserve and higher than any other bidder. You somehow feel there is a conspiracy theory and markets are being manipulated and you have been manipulated thousands of times into over paying. Really? Seriously? once or twice perhaps when you didnt know the ropes perhaps but 1000 times you repeated the same behaviour knowing you were being manipulated?

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, TheGoldSovereign said:

This is under review, because suddenly their conscience for defrauding people got the better of them, or because someone like me kicked up a fuss and brought it to people's attention?

Feel free to defend away, if it comes to it I will make a much more interesting thread at a later date.

You really need to stop using language like "illegal" and "defraud" and where have I defended anything?  I said that its a business that has now run 2 auctions and is finding the best way to meet the needs of buyers and sellers. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Numistacker said:

You are attacking something in a way that I feel is inappropriate and that is why I would begin to defend it.  I am not saying its really right but I am trying to give you and others reading this post a partial explanation of the topic as i see it as each auction house has very carefully looked at this and tried to work out what is best for them, for buyers and for sellers and none of these discussions will have been an off the cuff lets screw the buyers  - do you think seriously that's how these sometimes very large businesses behave?  

Lets look at DNW

14 Reserves
The seller shall be entitled to place, prior to the first day of the auction, a reserve at or below the low estimate on any lot provided that the low estimate is more than £100. Such reserve being the minimum ‘hammer price’ at which that lot may be treated as sold. A reserve once placed by the seller shall not be changed without the consent of DNW. DNW may at their option sell at a ‘hammer price’ below the reserve but in any such cases the sale proceeds to which the seller is entitled shall be the same as they would have been had the sale been at the reserve. Where a reserve has been placed, only the auctioneer may bid on behalf of the seller.

Reserves are accepted but NOT disclosed

Lets look at BSJ

6. Reserves

The seller shall be entitled to place a reserve on any lot which has a minimum value of £100, being the minimum hammer price at which that lot may be treated as sold. A reserve once placed by the seller shall not be changed without the consent of St James’s Auctions. Where a reserve exceeds the published estimate St James’s Auctions may, at their discretion, withdraw the lot from sale. Where a reserve has been placed, St James’s Auctions may, on behalf of the seller, bid up to that reserve. A reserve must be received by the Auctioneers at least one week prior to the date of sale. Any unsold lots with reserves set in excess of that suggested by the management will be charged 6% of the reserve.

Reserves are accepted but not disclosed and attract a 6% charge to the consigner

The only auction house i have seen showing the reserve is Heritage are there others?

Market Value?

You call me ignorant? Not really a very nice thing to say to be honest but what is market value? Its the price buyers and sellers meet to establish value and price? A buyer must be prepared to pay and a seller must be prepared to sell. In a coin auction it must be over the reserve and higher than any other bidder. You somehow feel there is a conspiracy theory and markets are being manipulated and you have been manipulated thousands of times into over paying. Really? Seriously? once or twice perhaps when you didnt know the ropes perhaps but 1000 times you repeated the same behaviour knowing you were being manipulated?

 

You are comparing apples and oranges, I refrained in my post from mentioning the auction house in question and I have no proof that any of the larger ones you've mention practice in this criminal behaviour.

The difference between the auctioneer in question and the information you are posting is that they apparently do not bid on behalf of the seller, against other bidders. This is the whole point and I'm sure you are missing it otherwise you wouldn't have these opinions.

Once again you are sticking with the lost funds comment I made, this is not the important point here. Market value is achieved at auctions by bidders competing for a lot and establishing a market price. If you only have 1 bidder and the seller bidding against them and the bidder isn't aware of it, how the hell is that a fair market price?

 

The Gold Sovereign

The Gold Sovereign aims to provide the most complete online resource to collectors of the world's most popular gold coin - the Sovereign.

www.thegoldsovereign.com    |    contact@thegoldsovereign.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Numistacker said:

You really need to stop using language like "illegal" and "defraud" and where have I defended anything?  I said that its a business that has now run 2 auctions and is finding the best way to meet the needs of buyers and sellers. 

I do not have to stop using that language because that is what it is, you are actually the only person who so far doesn't agree with this, even auctioneers I've spoken with on your list agree this practice is fraud.

The Gold Sovereign

The Gold Sovereign aims to provide the most complete online resource to collectors of the world's most popular gold coin - the Sovereign.

www.thegoldsovereign.com    |    contact@thegoldsovereign.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The way the hidden reserve is sometimes used is that unsold lots are sold post auction with that price (+ the buyer's premium) - so as to get rid of the item the vendor wanted to sell. I don't think there's a problem with the hidden reserve per se as it's typically (by my limited experience) equal to or lower than the starting price of the lot in the actual auction.

If there's shadow bidding or if the auctioneer would somehow signal to his in-room pals that there are still room to bid up on the online bidding system, then I'd be quite peeved to discover such a thing and probably would avoid them again. 🤷‍♂️

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If someone is bidding with no intention of buying then is it not shill bidding which is illegal?  The 'house' has no intention of buying the item so they are shill bidding.

There was that eBay guy prosecuted under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 for shill bidding.

This link suggests that shill bidders could also be prosecuted under the Fraud Act 2006 - https://www.inbrief.co.uk/consumer-law/shill-bidding/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Cookies & terms of service

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. By continuing to use this site you consent to the use of cookies and to our Privacy Policy & Terms of Use