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Münzedachs rude answer


Kraittos

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My post is simply to share with you and to know your opinion of whether I have done wrong or not ( not in my opinion ).

The fact is that looking for the new coin of the series ..., I found it in Münzdachs at 29 euros so seeing the lack of stock I made the order with subsequent payment, the fact is that I continued looking and found it for 25.78 in goldsilver.be along with other coins that interested me so I made the order here and I contacted Münzdachs apologizing for the inconvenience and canceling the order (those coins will sell quickly), to which I get as a response the following in German: 

Hallo,

Hiermit storniert.
Bitte nicht wieder bei uns bestellen, da wir keine Spasskäufer als Kunden wünschen.
Viele Grüße
 
S.... S.... (I don't want to show his name).
 
translation
 

Hello,

Cancelled herewith.

Please do not order from us again, as we do not want fun buyers as customers.

Many greetings.

 

 

I've placed orders with them before and they respond by saying that they don't want me as a customer anymore for canceling an order.... I think it's very rude of them and I want to share it with you because maybe I have been and I don't realize it... 

I submit myself to the general opinion (of course I will never buy from your website again) .

 

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Honestly when purchasing PMs you have made the deal, paid for it, the company than has to source the coin, you then change your mind over 3 euros.

You should of kept the order, ordered another from goldsilver.be with the others that you liked

In short he was pretty accurate with his comment in my opinion and was not that offensive.

I would suggest in future bite the bullet if you change your mind, dont waste companies time over a trivial amount and not be so easily offended.

I would however guess quite a few on the forum would disagree with me since price is all that matters to some people, irrespective of the inconvienience they cause others or potentially ruining a future working relationship going forward... 

Interesting to hear others views ...

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I'm surprised he agreed to cancel the order, most dealers have a strict no cancel clause for PMs.

How many did you order, ie what was the order value?

If I were the dealer, I too would be a bit p*ssed off at you for wanting to cancel an order to save just over €3 on a coin, although he might not have known the exact details.

A busy small dealer certainly wouldn't want customers doing what you did all the time, so I can understand his attitude. PM dealers don't operate like most other businesses, margins are tight and time wasted cancelling orders they can certainly do without.

You may well have been polite in your request but you don't know how common this is to warrant such a no tolerance attitude in return.

 

Profile picture with thanks to Carl Vernon

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I ordered 25 oz , so the difference was around 75 euros so I purchased it and just 2 hours later I wrote to them to cancel the order. 

My work makes me continually have to deal with people, if someone changes my mind, especially as a client of mine, the last thing I would do is say not to continue as a client, I would like to know the reason for the cancellation and if it is a question of price and competition so that they rise to the competition.

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Hallo, guten Morgen,
 
Ich beantrage schriftlich die Stornierung dieser Bestellung.
 
In Erwartung Ihrer Bestätigung.
 
Entschuldigung für die Unannehmlichkeiten.
 
Ich grüße Sie.
 
tranlate : 
Hello, good morning,
I request the cancellation of this order in writing.
Awaiting your confirmation.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
I greet you.

That was my request for cancellation. 

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1 minute ago, Kraittos said:

I ordered 25 oz , so the difference was around 75 euros so I purchased it and just 2 hours later I wrote to them to cancel the order. 

My work makes me continually have to deal with people, if someone changes my mind, especially as a client of mine, the last thing I would do is say not to continue as a client, I would like to know the reason for the cancellation and if it is a question of price and competition so that they rise to the competition.

As Steve says, it doesnt work like that in the PM world, it also doesnt matter if you order 1 or 25, people cannot run a business efficiently with messing about, you should of done your research properly in the first place or just took the hit, smiled and moved on.

 

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31 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

I'm surprised he agreed to cancel the order, most dealers have a strict no cancel clause for PMs.

How many did you order, ie what was the order value?

If I were the dealer, I too would be a bit p*ssed off at you for wanting to cancel an order to save just over €3 on a coin, although he might not have known the exact details.

A busy small dealer certainly wouldn't want customers doing what you did all the time, so I can understand his attitude. PM dealers don't operate like most other businesses, margins are tight and time wasted cancelling orders they can certainly do without.

You may well have been polite in your request but you don't know how common this is to warrant such a no tolerance attitude in return.

 

I have been buying PM's for years, but it is the last year that I have been more active. He knew of their small margins and thought he knew what the business was like except for this. This is the first time I have canceled an order and it was not in bad faith at all so I was very surprised by your response.
Anyway, I think they are not ways to treat a client, if he had been rude or a new client could understand it, but I have already made orders before.
Anyway, if it was a bad attitude of mine and it is what most people think I would like to know so as not to repeat it again.
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I'd say this puts Munzedachs in a good light!

Their professionalism was demonstrated in their restraint.

Now, if you'd cancelled an order with gs.be like that, the outcome would most likely have been quite different.

Technically, alcohol is a solution..

'It [socialism] poses a growing threat, however unintentional, to the freedom of this country, for there is no freedom where the State totally controls the economy. Personal freedom and economic freedom are indivisible. You can’t have one without the other. You can’t lose one without losing the other.'

"There is no such thing as public money, there is only taxpayers' money"

Let not England forget her precedence of teaching nations how to live.

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8 minutes ago, Roy said:

I'd say this puts Munzedachs in a good light!

Their professionalism was demonstrated in their restraint.

Now, if you'd cancelled an order with gs.be like that, the outcome would most likely have been quite different.

In what different sense? I simply ask to know what other experiences or attitudes would have been, I ask from ignorance.
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45 minutes ago, Kraittos said:

if it was a bad attitude of mine

Not a 'bad' attitude (yes you were very polite), just the 'wrong' attitude to have in the PM market, it's not how it works.

Try buying a house and two hours later asking for your money back because you found one cheaper down the road! It may seem a strange comparison but that is the kind of money these firms are often dealing with. Or buy shares and then ask for a full refund when they dip in value.

Hopefully a good learning experience for you, and they were good enough to refund you and professionally polite about it imho (unless something has been lost from the German translation) :)

 

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4 minutes ago, kimchi said:

Not a 'bad' attitude (yes you were very polite), just the 'wrong' attitude to have in the PM market, it's not how it works.

Try buying a house and two hours later asking for your money back because you found one cheaper down the road! It may seem a strange comparison but that is the kind of money these firms are often dealing with. Or buy shares and then ask for a full refund when they dip in value.

Hopefully a good learning experience for you, and they were good enough to refund you and professionally polite about it imho (unless something has been lost from the German translation) :)

 

I understand more or less yes. Anyway I only made the order I had not made the payment, they only canceled the order, they didn't give me the money back since I had not paid yet, 
I simply canceled an "intention" to order. ( if it is the right word)
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I think they have been unnecessarily rude personally. They could of easily explained that they don't offer refunds normally and say please don't do it again.

Why does it work differently in the PM world? If the terms and conditions of the sale don't make it clear there are no refunds then he is right to be able to cancel. Don't want your customers doing that then put it in the t&c's. Lots of businesses have tight margins and are busy, I don't see that as a valid excuse for essentially telling a returning customer to do one. 

It's not like the OP waited a few days and then changed his mind, it was hrs, and to top it off he was a returning customer! Sure it can be annoying selling things, but if you've such a fragile disposition perhaps it's not the right business for you? In such a competitive world surely adding some value in decent customer services would set you apart? 

 

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1 minute ago, Notafront4adragon said:

I think they have been unnecessarily rude personally. They could of easily explained that they don't offer refunds normally and say please don't do it again.

Why does it work differently in the PM world? If the terms and conditions of the sale don't make it clear there are no refunds then he is right to be able to cancel. Don't want your customers doing that then put it in the t&c's. Lots of businesses have tight margins and are busy, I don't see that as a valid excuse for essentially telling a returning customer to do one. 

It's not like the OP waited a few days and then changed his mind, it was hrs, and to top it off he was a returning customer! Sure it can be annoying selling things, but if you've such a fragile disposition perhaps it's not the right business for you? In such a competitive world surely adding some value in decent customer services would set you apart? 

 

They terms and conditions say that you can cancel an order before 14 days, and I didn't ask for my money back because I didn't pay, I only purchase to pay by transfert bank and before To do the transfert I found another one cheaper. I agree with you that maybe it is a waste of time but in a competitive PM maybe you should deal kindly with your customers. 

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32 minutes ago, Kraittos said:

They terms and conditions say that you can cancel an order before 14 days, and I didn't ask for my money back because I didn't pay, I only purchase to pay by transfert bank and before To do the transfert I found another one cheaper. I agree with you that maybe it is a waste of time but in a competitive PM maybe you should deal kindly with your customers. 

Ah it's unfortunate then. I thought you had entered a binding contract with them.

I'm certainly not saying it's right, but unless you have a 'personal' business contact/relationship within a PM company (or use a small company where they do sometimes really make the extra effort) you might quite often get this kind of reply (or very much worse in the case of Goldsilver.be) from some of the 'faceless' European dealers I'm afraid to say.

It sounds like a good result all round really - they've made the point that they don't want customers who cancel orders despite their t&cs, you got your coins cheaper, and found out the company doesn't deserve your business. I would take the positives and move on :)

I've had the old 'it's only bullion' excuse from BullionByPost here in the UK before (for a premium grade coin which arrived in terrible condition) so I understand it doesn't feel good. I simply haven't used them since.

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56 minutes ago, Kraittos said:

They terms and conditions say that you can cancel an order before 14 days,

Really, I'm surprised, that's is exceeding generous in the PM world.

I can imagine he would allow buyers one chance at cancelling an order and then "blacklisting"  them (if I may dare to use that term😁)

14 days is a long time, if someone made a large bullion purchase they could feasibly cancel if spot price went down substantially. That would be a large loss to the dealer.

Profile picture with thanks to Carl Vernon

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31 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

Really, I'm surprised, that's is exceeding generous in the PM world.

I can imagine he would allow buyers one chance at cancelling an order and then "blacklisting"  them (if I may dare to use that term😁)

14 days is a long time, if someone made a large bullion purchase they could feasibly cancel if spot price went down substantially. That would be a large loss to the dealer.

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1 hour ago, sovereignsteve said:

Really, I'm surprised, that's is exceeding generous in the PM world.

I can imagine he would allow buyers one chance at cancelling an order and then "blacklisting"  them (if I may dare to use that term😁)

14 days is a long time, if someone made a large bullion purchase they could feasibly cancel if spot price went down substantially. That would be a large loss to the dealer.

14 days is generous, yes. They do not tend to deal in generic bullion with small margins, though, where the normal fluctuations in spot price affect them. They do a lot of collector bullion with higher premiums which don't track spot on a daily basis.

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2 hours ago, Kraittos said:

They terms and conditions say that you can cancel an order before 14 days, and I didn't ask for my money back because I didn't pay, I only purchase to pay by transfert bank and before To do the transfert I found another one cheaper. I agree with you that maybe it is a waste of time but in a competitive PM maybe you should deal kindly with your customers. 

Could not find this T&C on their website though? What they do say is that they have the right to reject your offer within three days. 

There's a reference to 14 days, but this says: "For deliveries with a delivery time of more than 14 days, payment must only be made when all items are ready for delivery. Payment must only be made when the goods are available from stock."

Maybe I'm missing something here. 🤔

§ 2 Vertragsschluss

(1) Die Angebote im Internet stellen eine unverbindliche Aufforderung an Sie dar, Waren zu bestellen.

(2) Sie können ein oder mehrere Produkte in den Warenkorb legen. Im Laufe des Bestellprozesses geben Sie Ihre Daten und Wünsche bzgl. Zahlungsart, Liefermodalitäten etc. ein. Erst mit dem Anklicken des Bestellbuttons geben Sie ein verbindliches Angebot auf Abschluss eines Kaufvertrags ab.

(3) Wir sind berechtigt, Ihr Angebot innerhalb von 3 Werktagen unter Zusendung einer Auftragsbestätigung per E-Mail anzunehmen. Nach fruchtlosem Ablauf der in Satz1 genannten Frist gilt Ihr Angebot als abgelehnt, d.h. Sie sind nicht länger an Ihr Angebot gebunden.

==

§ 2 conclusion of contract
(1) The offers on the Internet represent a non-binding invitation to you to order goods.

(2) You can add one or more products to the shopping cart. In the course of the ordering process, you enter your data and requests regarding payment method, delivery modalities, etc. You only make a binding offer to conclude a purchase contract by clicking on the order button.

(3) We are entitled to accept your offer within 3 working days by sending an order confirmation by email. After the fruitless expiry of the period mentioned in sentence 1, your offer is considered rejected, i.e. You are no 
longer bound by your offer.

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken

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3 minutes ago, jultorsk said:

Could not find this T&C on their website though? What they do say is that they have the right to reject your offer within three days. 

There's a reference to 14 days, but this says: "For deliveries with a delivery time of more than 14 days, payment must only be made when all items are ready for delivery. Payment must only be made when the goods are available from stock."

Maybe I'm missing something here. 🤔

§ 2 Vertragsschluss

(1) Die Angebote im Internet stellen eine unverbindliche Aufforderung an Sie dar, Waren zu bestellen.

(2) Sie können ein oder mehrere Produkte in den Warenkorb legen. Im Laufe des Bestellprozesses geben Sie Ihre Daten und Wünsche bzgl. Zahlungsart, Liefermodalitäten etc. ein. Erst mit dem Anklicken des Bestellbuttons geben Sie ein verbindliches Angebot auf Abschluss eines Kaufvertrags ab.

(3) Wir sind berechtigt, Ihr Angebot innerhalb von 3 Werktagen unter Zusendung einer Auftragsbestätigung per E-Mail anzunehmen. Nach fruchtlosem Ablauf der in Satz1 genannten Frist gilt Ihr Angebot als abgelehnt, d.h. Sie sind nicht länger an Ihr Angebot gebunden.

==


§ 2 conclusion of contract
(1) The offers on the Internet represent a non-binding invitation to you to order goods.

(2) You can add one or more products to the shopping cart. In the course of the ordering process, you enter your data and requests regarding payment method, delivery modalities, etc. You only make a binding offer to conclude a purchase contract by clicking on the order button.

(3) We are entitled to accept your offer within 3 working days by sending an order confirmation by email. After the fruitless expiry of the period mentioned in sentence 1, your offer is considered rejected, i.e. You are no 
longer bound by your offer.

Here what I received in confirmation mail before the payment:

 

Widerrufsbelehrung

Widerrufsrecht

Sie haben das Recht, binnen vierzehn Tagen ohne Angabe von Gründen diesen Vertrag zu widerrufen.

Die Widerrufsfrist beträgt vierzehn Tage ab dem Tag, an dem Sie oder ein von Ihnen benannter Dritter, der nicht der Beförderer ist, die Waren in Besitz genommen haben bzw. hat.

Um Ihr Widerrufsrecht auszuüben, müssen Sie uns (Sören Steinert, Weidenweg 73, 55299 Nackenheim, info@muenzdachs.de, Telefon: 01577-5332247 , Telefax: 03222-1750902 ) mittels einer eindeutigen Erklärung (z.B. ein mit der Post versandter Brief, Telefax oder E-Mail) über Ihren Entschluss, diesen Vertrag zu widerrufen, informieren. Sie können dafür das beigefügte Muster-Widerrufsformular verwenden, das jedoch nicht vorgeschrieben ist.

Zur Wahrung der Widerrufsfrist reicht es aus, dass Sie die Mitteilung über die Ausübung des Widerrufsrechts vor Ablauf der Widerrufsfrist absenden.

 

 

Folgen des Widerrufs

Wenn Sie diesen Vertrag widerrufen, haben wir Ihnen alle Zahlungen, die wir von Ihnen erhalten haben, einschließlich der Lieferkosten (mit Ausnahme der zusätzlichen Kosten, die sich daraus ergeben, dass Sie eine andere Art der Lieferung als die von uns angebotene, günstigste Standardlieferung gewählt haben), unverzüglich und spätestens binnen vierzehn Tagen ab dem Tag zurückzuzahlen, an dem die Mitteilung über Ihren Widerruf dieses Vertrags bei uns eingegangen ist. Für diese Rückzahlung verwenden wir dasselbe Zahlungsmittel, das Sie bei der ursprünglichen Transaktion eingesetzt haben, es sei denn, mit Ihnen wurde ausdrücklich etwas anderes vereinbart; in keinem Fall werden Ihnen wegen dieser Rückzahlung Entgelte berechnet. Wir können die Rückzahlung verweigern, bis wir die Waren wieder zurückerhalten haben oder bis Sie den Nachweis erbracht haben, dass Sie die Waren zurückgesandt haben, je nachdem, welches der frühere Zeitpunkt ist. Sie haben die Waren unverzüglich und in jedem Fall spätestens binnen vierzehn Tagen ab dem Tag, an dem Sie uns über den Widerruf dieses Vertrags unterrichten, an uns zurückzusenden oder zu übergeben. Die Frist ist gewahrt, wenn Sie die Waren vor Ablauf der Frist von vierzehn Tagen absenden.

Sie tragen die unmittelbaren Kosten der Rücksendung der Waren.

Sie müssen für einen etwaigen Wertverlust der Waren nur aufkommen, wenn dieser Wertverlust auf einen zur Prüfung der Beschaffenheit, Eigenschaften und Funktionsweise der Waren nicht notwendigen Umgang mit ihnen zurückzuführen ist.

 

Erstellt und laufend aktualisiert durch die janolaw AG.
 
Translation: 
 
Right of withdrawal

Right of withdrawal
You have the right to cancel this contract within fourteen days without giving any reason.
The cancellation period is fourteen days from the day on which you or a third party named by you, who is not the carrier, took possession of the goods.
In order to exercise your right of cancellation, you have to give us (Sören Steinert, Weidenweg 73, 55299 Nackenheim, info@muenzdachs.de, phone: 01577-5332247, fax: 03222-1750902) by means of a clear statement (e.g. a letter sent by post, fax or email) of your decision to cancel this contract. You can use the attached sample withdrawal form, but this is not mandatory.
To meet the cancellation deadline, it is sufficient for you to send your communication regarding your exercise of the right of cancellation before the cancellation period expires.
 
 Consequences of cancellation

If you cancel this contract, we have made all payments to you that we have received from you, including delivery costs (with the exception of the additional costs that result from the fact that you chose a different type of delivery than the cheapest standard delivery we offer have) to repay immediately and at the latest within fourteen days from the day on which we received notification of your cancellation of this contract. For this repayment, we use the same means of payment that you used in the original transaction, unless expressly agreed otherwise with you; under no circumstances will you be charged any fees for this repayment. We can refuse the repayment until we have received the goods back or until you have provided proof that you have returned the goods, whichever is the earlier. You must return or hand over the goods to us immediately and in any event no later than fourteen days from the date on which you inform us of the cancellation of this contract. The deadline is met if you send off the goods before the period of fourteen days has expired.
You bear the direct costs of returning the goods.

You only have to pay for any loss in value of the goods if this loss in value is due to handling that is not necessary for checking the nature, properties and functionality of the goods.
 
Created and continuously updated by the janolaw AG.
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Thank you @Kraittos. Well, in my opinion, which may well be incorrect, the above mentioned 14-day Widerrufsrecht refers to the time after you have taken possession of the ordered goods. It would not negate that you have earlier made a binding contract to purchase and pay. As said, just my interpretation. I can see there is a potential for "mixed messages".

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken

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3 minutes ago, jultorsk said:

Thank you @Kraittos. Well, in my opinion, which may well be incorrect, the above mentioned 14-day Widerrufsrecht refers to the time after you have taken possession of the ordered goods. It would not negate that you have earlier made a binding contract to purchase and pay. As said, just my interpretation. I can see there is a potential for "mixed messages".

Thank you for your opinion :). Its terms are not clear because I interpreted that within 14 days I could cancel the order, whether I have paid and received them or have not even paid yet.
In any case, an order-payment-shipping-return is less waste of time than order-cancellation without having paid. That is why reading your terms I believed that I could cancel without receiving such a response.  I do not want to bother you with the subject, simply to know something more about the general terms of the dealers and that I act in the most correct way in future occasions
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In general, because you are honestly asking if you did anything wrong and want to know for future..... to be honest, it is not good to have cancelled so quickly or casually. Take more time when deciding where to buy, and stick with your decision.

The reasons this type of 14 day return is so valuable, and should not be used casually, 1)majority of dealers will not offer this for bullion, generic or collectible 2)it is extra valuable for buyers of the high premium collectible bullion because if you find marks or scratches on your lovely new piece when it arrives, you know he will take returns. Others will still tell you to suck-it-up as it's still bullion even though it came at a high premium 3)if this generous return offer is mis-used too often, especially if customers are just changing their mind later, then the dealer could decide to end the return/cancellation policy for all bullion items and just keep it for proof coins only.

I know that if i had been in the market for one of the 5oz Black Flag from Perth Mint for instance, and i wasn't happy with the condition when i got it, i know which type of dealer i would prefer to use. So yes, i agree that when simply cancelling the order you didn't do anything really bad to deserve being told to go away forever.... but i also agree that in the mind of the dealer this isn't what the policy is meant to be used for.

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4 minutes ago, swAgger said:

In general, because you are honestly asking if you did anything wrong and want to know for future..... to be honest, it is not good to have cancelled so quickly or casually. Take more time when deciding where to buy, and stick with your decision.

The reasons this type of 14 day return is so valuable, and should not be used casually, 1)majority of dealers will not offer this for bullion, generic or collectible 2)it is extra valuable for buyers of the high premium collectible bullion because if you find marks or scratches on your lovely new piece when it arrives, you know he will take returns. Others will still tell you to suck-it-up as it's still bullion even though it came at a high premium 3)if this generous return offer is mis-used too often, especially if customers are just changing their mind later, then the dealer could decide to end the return/cancellation policy for all bullion items and just keep it for proof coins only.

I know that if i had been in the market for one of the 5oz Black Flag from Perth Mint for instance, and i wasn't happy with the condition when i got it, i know which type of dealer i would prefer to use. So yes, i agree that when simply cancelling the order you didn't do anything really bad to deserve being told to go away forever.... but i also agree that in the mind of the dealer this isn't what the policy is meant to be used for.

Thank you very much for taking the time to answer. I fully understand that if we all use it to retract a purchase without reason, in the end those who make good use of the cancellation policy end up penalized. His answer was rude but I have understood the background.
I will be more careful in future purchases 👍
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It's not great customer service, but as usual it's almost always customers messing about that brings the worst out of dealers.

Appreciate it wasn't deliberate, but you're messing them about here. You shouldn't buy a product from a PM dealer and then cancel. I suspect they were so forthcoming about cancelling because no payment had been made. I also wouldn't be surprised (but I am guessing) that the 14 day right to cancellation may not apply to items classed a bullion investments - it almost never does. 

A word of warning, I would not order from them again now. There was a lengthy thread on here about a similar situation with GS.BE where someone cancelled soon after order but without payment. GS.BE cancelled. The customer subsequently made another order at a later date and this time they paid. They had their money put on hold immediately and ended up in a lengthy dispute over fees on the previous order. So I'd personally steer clear of this dealer now that you've had this disagreement. 

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