To open or not?!

[Anker]

Hello all,

Newbie stacker here. For better or worse I jumped straight into the world of silver stacking and bought a new Britannia Monster Box.

I'm just wondering if it makes much, (or indeed any) difference to the future resale value if I leave the box completed unopened RM bands in place etc?

TIA

Anker     

[Guybrush]

If you have no interest in the coins specifically, keep it sealed.  I myself have stopped buying silver unless its a sealed tube simply because when I come to sell I only want to be selling a tube at a time minimum.

You can always open up a box, you can always open a tube in it, once open though you cannot go back so unless there is a reason to I would keep it sealed.

[sovereignsteve]

I could never leave a monster box unopened. There would always be that voice in my head saying "how do you know it's full of silver?".

I doubt an unopened box of Brits would be have a higher resale value than an opened one so why do it?

I can believe an unopened tube of coins might hold a premium especially if they have some numismatic value. Modern Brits? I doubt it.

personally I would open the box and one tube then go from there.

[Anker]

Thanks for the replies.

I'll shoot off an email to the dealer I purchased from, (bullion by post) and see what their option is. Not that I would be reselling to them but it would be interesting to hear their opinion.

[MancunianStacker]

3 minutes ago, Anker said:

Thanks for the replies.

I'll shoot off an email to the dealer I purchased from, (bullion by post) and see what their option is. Not that I would be reselling to them but it would be interesting to hear their opinion.

Are you paying VAT?? You might want to rethink the order and cancel?

[MancunianStacker]

Lots of European dealers where you won’t pay Vat! That’s 20% off!!

https://www.silver-to-go.com/en/
 

I’ve used these myself several time. There is even a group purchase option on this forum. 

[Anker]

Just now, MancunianStacker said:

Lots of European dealers where you won’t pay Vat! That’s 20% off!!

https://www.silver-to-go.com/en/
 

I’ve used these myself several time. There is even a group purchase option on this forum. 

To be honest I'm very confused about the VAT on silver.

I want to have delivery of the silver therefore my understanding is that VAT must be paid. The VAT liability is created at the point of sale if purchased here in the UK or if buying outside the UK once imported into the country. My understanding is that there avoidance of that VAT payment is illegal (if you want to take physical delivery in the UK).

To add another layer of complexity I have purchased the monsterbox through my Ltd company using company money so it is imperative that the transaction is completely compliant.

I'm not sure if I have could have avoided VAT in this scenario or if I've missed a trick, in any event the transaction is gone through and the silver is in delivery so no cancelling of the order now!

[MancunianStacker]

2 minutes ago, Anker said:

To be honest I'm very confused about the VAT on silver.

I want to have delivery of the silver therefore my understanding is that VAT must be paid. The VAT liability is created at the point of sale if purchased here in the UK or if buying outside the UK once imported into the country. My understanding is that there avoidance of that VAT payment is illegal (if you want to take physical delivery in the UK).

To add another layer of complexity I have purchased the monsterbox through my Ltd company using company money so it is imperative that the transaction is completely compliant.

I'm not sure if I have could have avoided VAT in this scenario or if I've missed a trick, in any event the transaction is gone through and the silver is in delivery so no cancelling of the order now!

Ah, in that case you would’ve have to have paid tax on the purchase anyway (Had you taken the monies out of the company for yourself etc).

[Anker]

2 minutes ago, MancunianStacker said:

Ah, in that case you would’ve have to have paid tax on the purchase anyway (Had you taken the monies out of the company for yourself etc).

Yeah that was an incentive to use companies monies but I'm still not sure if VAT can be avoided in either a personnel or company purchase.

Looking at the FAQ on silver to go, they are suggesting that VAT is not chargeable.
But what they have actually said is that they are not required to charge VAT in Germany; that doesn't mean a UK resident doesn't have to pay VAT to HMRC on receiving silver from Germany, those are two very different scenarios.

My understanding is that VAT is payable on silver imported to the UK, and you are liable to pay it with no exceptions. 
That's not to say it cant be done!

[MancunianStacker]

1 minute ago, Anker said:

Yeah that was an incentive to use companies monies but I'm still not sure if VAT can be avoided in either a personnel or company purchase.

Looking at the FAQ on silver to go, they are suggesting that VAT is not chargeable.
But what they have actually said is that they are not required to charge VAT in Germany; that doesn't mean a UK resident doesn't have to pay VAT to HMRC on receiving silver from Germany, those are two very different scenarios.

My understanding is that VAT is payable on silver imported to the UK, and you are liable to pay it with no exceptions. 
That's not to say it cant be done!

Fair enough. I’ve never had a VAT claim post receipt but whether your accountant would have an issue with this is another thing as he’d be putting it through the books for you and doubtful he’s come across this before too.

I thought it was something to do with them being coins (legal tender), the country having lower or no VAT when you bought it, us being EU members and therefore no double VAT. 

[Anker]

6 minutes ago, MancunianStacker said:

Fair enough. I’ve never had a VAT claim post receipt but whether your accountant would have an issue with this is another thing as he’d be putting it through the books for you and doubtful he’s come across this before too.

I thought it was something to do with them being coins (legal tender), the country having lower or no VAT when you bought it, us being EU members and therefore no double VAT. 

This is my very basic and possibly incorrect understanding of the VAT implications on silver. 

In Ireland the VAT man is not someone you want to get on the wrong side of, (I'm Irish living in the UK) not sure what its like here.
In Ireland if found avoiding VAT where payable the penalties are absolutely crippling, original liability, interest on that liability and penalties.

Personally I wouldn't even consider trying to avoid VAT, certainly not if you tick any of the following: self employed, company owner, using company funds etc.

 

 

[Kman]

You can buy VAT free silver from Europe, it's absolutely fine, large UK bullion dealers do it, I'm sure they have the best knowledge and advice on the topic. 

[Arganto]

When an individual buys from a low VAT/no VAT supplier in Europe you cop the VAT charge or lack thereof in the country of question, you don't pay UK VAT when it enters the country unlike shipping from the US or similar. It's to do with agreements within the EU and the way it is shipped to you (the courier company acts on your behalf collecting from the country in question). There's a lot of chat about this subject on the forum and online in general, it's a good idea to search it up for your own piece of mind as my basic explanation misses specifics and nuance. If you're buying using a VAT registered company though that's a different question all together. @BackyardBullion has spoken of this at length and has much experience in this realm.

Also, I would open the box and let fistfuls of silver pour out in front of me whilst cackling like a lunatic pirate. 

[BackyardBullion]

For the time being the UK is on the "transition period" and this means there are no import charge and/or VAT levies on items bought and shipped from within the EU

This means that you pay the VAT rate for the country that you are buying from and when imported to the UK the free movement of goods means no extra charges. 

Some countries have lower rates of VAT on silver coins. Estonia is the best with 0% as long as you instruct a courier to pick the items up and send them to you. 

Totally legal and we (collective forum community) have been doing this for 5+ years without issue. 

Hell, I have made videos on YouTube with over 1 million views on just unboxing these orders AND I have had to register at one point with HMRC for VAT and have never had issues or been questioned so I think it is all good 🙂

Basically, you have bought your monster box with a bunch of extra tax that you didnt need to pay. 

BBP is about £10,500 for a monster box of 500

European dealers are about £9250 inc. delivery

Quite the difference!

 

[BackyardBullion]

Just to follow up

It is exactly the same if you buy other goods in Europe. If you buy a camera from Germany you don't pay VAT when it arrives in the UK as you would have paid it at source with the German company already. 

When the transition period ends though it is very  likely we will have VAT and import charges on not just silver but a great many other things. 

[Anker]

4 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

For the time being the UK is on the "transition period" and this means there are no import charge and/or VAT levies on items bought and shipped from within the EU

This means that you pay the VAT rate for the country that you are buying from and when imported to the UK the free movement of goods means no extra charges. 

Some countries have lower rates of VAT on silver coins. Estonia is the best with 0% as long as you instruct a courier to pick the items up and send them to you. 

Totally legal and we (collective forum community) have been doing this for 5+ years without issue. 

Hell, I have made videos on YouTube with over 1 million views on just unboxing these orders AND I have had to register at one point with HMRC for VAT and have never had issues or been questioned so I think it is all good 🙂

Basically, you have bought your monster box with a bunch of extra tax that you didnt need to pay. 

BBP is about £10,500 for a monster box of 500

European dealers are about £9250 inc. delivery

Quite the difference!

 

Thanks for the explanation BYB!

Now to add another twist to my purchase, I bought the monsterbox through my VAT registered Limited company so I'm hoping that I can reclaim (offset) the VAT, I'm having my accountant confirm this Monday. Figures crossed I'll be able to. 

Regardless of everything how then is there a market for silver sold from UK based dealers who must charge VAT? 

 

[BackyardBullion]

1 minute ago, Anker said:

Thanks for the explanation BYB!

Now to add another twist to my purchase, I bought the monsterbox through my VAT registered Limited company so I'm hoping that I can reclaim (offset) the VAT, I'm having my accountant confirm this Monday. Figures crossed I'll be able to. 

Regardless of everything how then is there a market for silver sold from UK based dealers who must charge VAT? 

 

Oh man, this is such a grey area. You can claim the VAT back but it then is a company asset, not a personal one. Very dodgy ground if you take possession personally of them as technically you should pay the company for the coins and that means the company will have to charge you VAT on the purchase. 

If the company holds them and subsequently sells them I believe the company would be liable for capital gains tax as the CGT exemption is only for individuals, not companies (not 100% on that one). 

Also, I believe that these would have to be declared on your companies accounts as assets, so HMRC would have something to say if they suddenly went missing. 

You are on murky ground my friend, I would strongly advise doing things above board if these coins go from company accounts to personal assets. Avoiding VAT this way is basically VAT fraud. 

I am sure there are very many laws in place to stop people setting up a Ltd company, registering for VAT and then claiming the VAT back on a bunch of expensive equipment that they end up keeping for themselves. 

Tread with care. 

As to the UK Market, it is not a big one for silver investment coins. I would say 95% of larger budget silver stackers go to Europe for their silver. Smaller orders of coins are still competitive in the UK because international delivery is so high for just a few coins it makes it not worth it. 

 

[Anker]

3 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

Oh man, this is such a grey area. You can claim the VAT back but it then is a company asset, not a personal one. Very dodgy ground if you take possession personally of them as technically you should pay the company for the coins and that means the company will have to charge you VAT on the purchase. 

If the company holds them and subsequently sells them I believe the company would be liable for capital gains tax as the CGT exemption is only for individuals, not companies (not 100% on that one). 

Also, I believe that these would have to be declared on your companies accounts as assets, so HMRC would have something to say if they suddenly went missing. 

You are on murky ground my friend, I would strongly advise doing things above board if these coins go from company accounts to personal assets. Avoiding VAT this way is basically VAT fraud. 

I am sure there are very many laws in place to stop people setting up a Ltd company, registering for VAT and then claiming the VAT back on a bunch of expensive equipment that they end up keeping for themselves. 

Tread with care. 

As to the UK Market, it is not a big one for silver investment coins. I would say 95% of larger budget silver stackers go to Europe for their silver. Smaller orders of coins are still competitive in the UK because international delivery is so high for just a few coins it makes it not worth it. 

 

Hi BYB, if you read my previous posts you'll see that with VAT I will be entirely compliant, certainly dont want to find myself on the wrong side of the VAT man!

The purchase was by the company to become a company asset and I've no intention of clandestinely transferring it into my own pocket, I'm not that foolish.

Interesting point with regards CGT, I hadn't even considered that exemption may only be for an individual so I'll have to have the accountant clarify that.

I'm generally good with performing due diligence before spending anything over a £100 so I'm disappointed that I made such an uninformed purchase at £10k+

Lessons learned on my Monster box purchase through a VAT reg Ltd company:
For:

• Use of company money prior to tax net
• Potential profits exempt from CGT (to be confirmed)
• Potential exposure to silver price appreciation (or not)
• Potential protection against inflation (or not)

Against:

• VAT must be charged on disposal. This will surely exclude selling on to a private non VAT registered individual. I'll likely have to sell to a VAT registered dealer.  
• Premiums on coins are high wherever purchased  (Obviously irrespective of VAT implications)

[sovereignsteve]

From a simple topic of whether to open a monster box of Brits, this has quickly moved on into the murky world of vat on coins. This is TSF folks

[Melon]

Think you need to do some careful reading before purchasing anything further Anker. 

Buying from Europe prevents the need to pay VAT at UK rates. That's long established. It doesn't equate to an exact 20% saving of course, but it is generally cheaper and completely legal. Just like you don't face import taxes on anything purchase for European Amazon sellers, but you do face VAT on anything purchased from the USA Amazon site for example. So for the personal monster box, you'd be well advised to at least look at the prices from the big established European dealers next time around. 

As for the company box, is there a good reason why your company needs silver coins in it's assets? It feels like a messy situation to be honest. You might save a bit up front if you do manage to reclaim VAT and obviously avoided the income tax on taking the money out of the company, but you're going to feel that pain and potentially more if you ever try to get them out of the company. 

 

[Stacktastic]

1 hour ago, Melon said:

Think you need to do some careful reading before purchasing anything further Anker. 

I don't feel so silly now after my post yesterday, sounds like a bit of a confusing situation, shame you bought so many coins, but it should offset if the value of silver goes up over time. 

I think I might make use of the EU group buy as I am under the impression that Brexit will affect that wont it? 

I am sure that you can get Estonian e-citizenship quite easily cant you? Would that affect it at all???

[Melon]

4 minutes ago, toby said:

I don't feel so silly now after my post yesterday, sounds like a bit of a confusing situation, shame you bought so many coins, but it should offset if the value of silver goes up over time. 

I think I might make use of the EU group buy as I am under the impression that Brexit will affect that wont it? 

I am sure that you can get Estonian e-citizenship quite easily cant you? Would that affect it at all???

No e-citizenship doesn't change anything if you want them delivered into the UK. Who knows what will happen after Brexit, but it could close out these European dealers to us. 

[Arganto]

TSF could always organise and annex a small section of the country, declare independence and zero VAT precious metals. Yes I'm sure there would be other 'more sensible' things to consider for a fledgling nation but start as you mean to go on I say! I will begin fortifying my garden, I will contact you all when the first ramparts have been constructed...

[mrrick]

 

Schrödinger's cat theroy says that the monster box has the silver and doesn't have the silver inside at the same time

the only way to find out if there is  a cat along with the silver in the box is to check inside 

[BjoScott]

Wow, never realized how bad you all have it over there with this VAT stuff.....  I don't even have to pay sales tax.....  LOL