I learnt a valuable lesson today.

[Stacktastic]

Hello everyone, this is my first post. 

I am new to this but am learning very fast, so my stupid questions won't last long. 
I was stupid today as I was looking on Ebay for some silver and came across a seller in my town selling the following on 3 separate listings. 

From a house clearance apparently. 

• 1 x 1oz 1967 Gold Kruger (removed now). https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fine-Gold-1967-Gold-Krugerrand-1oz-House-Clearance-Find-Coin-/143622472296?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&autorefresh=true&nma=true&si=eihv%2FmIxR7kOLcQjJ7MgHUAvWmU%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&fbclid=IwAR1kWZLK4orc9AtBEGUiEvcoaH5R3tAe1i2X-OVenpYYmkYqc9pE-sf02FA 
• 1 x 2011 100 dollar GOLD kangaroo (only 7 bids!) - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2011-1-oz-Fine-Gold-Australia-100-Dollar-Coin-Perth-Mint-House-Cleara/143622611104?hash=item21709320a0:g:KFQAAOSw3ate1UDu
• 1 x 1oz JP Buillion & a Suisse 1oz JP Buillion (32 bids, which was what got me interested in the Kruger). https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/fine-gold-bar-99-9-Bullion-Credit-Suisse-Johnson-1oz-House-Clearance/143622614458?hash=item2170932dba:g:6xYAAOSwNG5e1O-N

To be fair it looked pretty legit & I put in a cheeky bid as it was already on £120. it ended up selling for £155 to me, so considering it is worth at least £1,600 I was quite shocked. 

After that I had the chance to do some proper research (opposed to my hour research before bidding). I first realised that one of the bars (probbaly both of them) were fake as the back is just not right on the JP one (the colour just looks totally wrong too), then I started looking into how good the fake coins are now as they pass most of the main tests, especially the Krugers). I have bought a coin tester thing & did a lot of research, but I think unless i had a proper machine, did an acid test & had a second coin I would not know the difference would I??  I then googled her house and thought "would someone that lives in a 2 bed really be letting all this go - so I messaged her and she gladly cancelled the order, so thats good. She was quite happy to do this so hopefully I have not made a mistake. Dont think so!!!

I will certainly be buying from this forum & from proper dealers & concentrating on 1oz silver or 'junk' silver, from my limited knowledge. 

[HerefordBullyun]

Ebay are rammed with fakes and scammers. Avoid!

[Shep]

I despise these kind of listings (and the people who list them), they know full well it’s not the genuine article. 

There is no way in hell anyone in their right mind would sell those items on eBay and with those descriptions if they had the faintest inkling that they were genuine.

A vulnerable relative of mine used to buy this kind of c**p off ebay all the time. They pray on the hope that someone hasn’t done their due diligence / doesn’t know any better and pays over the odds for their shite.

 

[Chorlton]

Unless you comfortable in assessing purchases and factor in the high number of scammers EBAY is best avoided. The obvious bargains very rarely are.

[silverdocket]

Welcome from 🍀 Ireland 🍀.

I always say it your better buying from here and do much better for the sake of a few pound.

A Seller reputation is very important to them here.

I haven't come across somebody with a bad experience yet.

 

[Paul]

where is my "shake head" GIF file ?

Sage advice, Reading, researching and learning will pay off for you many mutiple times more than the time it takes you to do it

[dicker]

Those are all fairly obvious fakes if you have spent time with the real thing.  I concur with the above - go with a dealer for your first purchase.  Spend time looking at high quality photos of coins you are interested in so that you can start to pick up on fakes.  
 

Best

Dicker

[Notafront4adragon]

1 hour ago, toby said:

Hello everyone, this is my first post. 

I am new to this but am learning very fast, so my stupid questions won't last long. 
I was stupid today as I was looking on Ebay for some silver and came across a seller in my town selling the following on 3 separate listings. 

From a house clearance apparently. 

• 1 x 1oz 1967 Gold Kruger (removed now). https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fine-Gold-1967-Gold-Krugerrand-1oz-House-Clearance-Find-Coin-/143622472296?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&autorefresh=true&nma=true&si=eihv%2FmIxR7kOLcQjJ7MgHUAvWmU%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&fbclid=IwAR1kWZLK4orc9AtBEGUiEvcoaH5R3tAe1i2X-OVenpYYmkYqc9pE-sf02FA 
• 1 x 2011 100 dollar GOLD kangaroo (only 7 bids!) - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2011-1-oz-Fine-Gold-Australia-100-Dollar-Coin-Perth-Mint-House-Cleara/143622611104?hash=item21709320a0:g:KFQAAOSw3ate1UDu
• 1 x 1oz JP Buillion & a Suisse 1oz JP Buillion (32 bids, which was what got me interested in the Kruger). https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/fine-gold-bar-99-9-Bullion-Credit-Suisse-Johnson-1oz-House-Clearance/143622614458?hash=item2170932dba:g:6xYAAOSwNG5e1O-N

To be fair it looked pretty legit & I put in a cheeky bid as it was already on £120. it ended up selling for £155 to me, so considering it is worth at least £1,600 I was quite shocked. 

After that I had the chance to do some proper research (opposed to my hour research before bidding). I first realised that one of the bars (probbaly both of them) were fake as the back is just not right on the JP one (the colour just looks totally wrong too), then I started looking into how good the fake coins are now as they pass most of the main tests, especially the Krugers). I have bought a coin tester thing & did a lot of research, but I think unless i had a proper machine, did an acid test & had a second coin I would not know the difference would I??  I then googled her house and thought "would someone that lives in a 2 bed really be letting all this go - so I messaged her and she gladly cancelled the order, so thats good. She was quite happy to do this so hopefully I have not made a mistake. Dont think so!!!

I will certainly be buying from this forum & from proper dealers & concentrating on 1oz silver or 'junk' silver, from my limited knowledge. 

That Kuggerand is 100% fake, and not a particularly good one. There are lots of details that are incorrect. You haven't made a mistake

[CadmiumGreen]

My favorite in those listings are the photos of the fake items on the scale weighing exactly 1.00 oz...that is what I call precision!

[Martlet]

Classic fake MO, the goods are untested, not sure, maybe plated no refunds.  This is to not fall foul of Ebay rules, knowingly selling counterfeit items.  If someone even suspected they were real you'd have them down the pawn shop or webuyanyoldgold.com. 

I think there are a few genuine cases of unknown valuables out there, odd bit of silver in a pile of old coins, a rare sovereign sold as bullion.  But far, far more is trying it on.  My favourite is a chap from Essex who's been selling a dozen house clearance lots every week for over a year, house must have belonged to Scrooge McDuck.

The thing to look for is the fonts, they are just not right on fakes and the definition of hair in Krugs or Sovs, is too deep without enough detail.  Look on a couple of dealers then compare to "House find" ebay lots and its obvious when you know what to look for. 

[Stacktastic]

Fab thanks people. Lesson learnt, that whole house clearance thing was a bit suss, when the lady said she was at work, which suggests she works for a company of some sort? Having said that she has amazing feedback? I was first spurred by the 30+ bids, but it never took off. Yes if anyone suspected it was real they would go to a coin shop. I suspect thats where they went.

Love that Scrooge Mcduck comment!! Not sure how to mutiquote (I ticked the boxes etc) but cheers for the feedback. What exactly was different in that coin I bought out of interest? 

In between fixing the air suspension on my car, I had printed off a dozen very high quality photos & put together a list of tests including measurement, weight, sound, magnet, serration numbers (not that i would have counted them LOL). I was a bit put off when I counted the deep 2-3 second ping from my Natwest worldsavers coins what the hell is that made of - tungsten??. It lasted all the tests even one on an app I downloaded for the ping sound I even tested it with my EMF reader - nothing. After watching the fake comparisons I gave up all hope as they are worth nothing. I stupidly thought they would be collectable at the age of 14 LOL. Bloody wish I had bought a silver coin once a week in that time now!!! 

Apart from buying on here do you think it would be worth doing a bulk buy from a dealer or little and often? If this depression is looming, I can really see it nose diving for a month or so when industry/stocks take control and then shooting up, when it all goes pear shaped? I have saids that I want to save little and often over a long period, but its very iffy that silver (and especially gold) will remain this price ever again, especially with a possible fiat collapse?? I work events & have to support a family on my own, so a lot of this is a hedge for the future, but I also like the buying, selling & collecting process a lot.  🙂

[Airhead]

Most people here my self excluded, seem to very knowledgeable and have quite a few years experience in the world of precious metals but everyone has thier own strategy which reflects thier own circumstances, from those who seem to buy quite a lot on a regular basis to those who only buy infrequently. I tend to keep away from numismatic (pretty) coins as I would probably loose my shirt. If I have made anything it has always been more by luck than judgement. I also tend to steer clear of fleabay, although to be fair a number of established forum traders have a presence there.

To answer your question about a bulk buy, if you have an amount of Fiat sitting in an account at a very low interest rate that you do not foresee being needed in the immediate future, then sure convert it to Gold, Sovereigns perhaps as they are very liquid. A very good resource has written been by a forum member @Darr3nG http://goldprice.eu5.net/. Otherwise little and often and as your circumstances allow.    

My own way of looking at it is that I do not like the financial system as it is, it seems to be a bit of a ponzy scheme and do not see it ending well. So any excess savings are converted to Gold as it seems to me to be an honest way of storing ones wealth. I was at one point buying quite a bit of Silver from Europe to avoid the dreaded VAT but compared to Gold, Silver, it seems to me to be more of a speculative purchase so I now tend to mainly concentrate on Gold although I do like the 2oz Queens Beasts series in Silver. Some people like ETFs, but opinion is divided, shall we say.

Good luck on your journey and perhaps to enjoy what you do buy. 

[Prophecy]

@toby mistakes are allowed, they are the best way to learn but keep the lessons cheap! HOWEVER, take a step back and work out why you impulsively did that. The evidence was in plain sight on ALL those listings but you wanted to believe differently. That's a bad habit that will get in the way of a lot of things working out for you, more on that later...

3 hours ago, toby said:

Apart from buying on here do you think it would be worth doing a bulk buy from a dealer or little and often?

Little and often until you know how to manage your emotions around finances.

3 hours ago, toby said:

I can really see it nose diving for a month or so

You can't see anything, no one does. It's just guesses and feelings based on emotionally clouded beliefs based on incomplete facts at best and blatant manipulation at worst. Understand the difference between seeing and SEEING. You don't see this. (whether it actually happens or not)

3 hours ago, toby said:

will remain this price ever again, especially with a possible fiat collapse??

FOMO again! Check your emotions. Fear will be the biggest drain on your bank account. All markets play on this especially financial based ones. Its called 'dumb money' for a reason

 

[Robb]

Ebay has some of the best buyer protection so for buyers it can be a great way to build your stack.  Selling on ebay can be miserable so I would avoid it for any high priced goods.  I've heard of a lot of sellers getting scammed, but hardly ever a buyer.

A little common sense also helps.  Buying gold at 1/10 of the spot price should set off some warning signals 😉

 

[Stacktastic]

5 hours ago, Robb said:

Ebay has some of the best buyer protection so for buyers it can be a great way to build your stack.  Selling on ebay can be miserable so I would avoid it for any high priced goods.  I've heard of a lot of sellers getting scammed, but hardly ever a buyer.

A little common sense also helps.  Buying gold at 1/10 of the spot price should set off some warning signals 😉

 

Thanks. I can see junk silver & the cheaper coins being a good thing to buy on Ebay.
Yes 1/10 did set off signals, but thats the problem with Auctions it had a lot of bids before I even found it. 

8 hours ago, Prophecy said:

@toby mistakes are allowed, they are the best way to learn but keep the lessons cheap! HOWEVER, take a step back and work out why you impulsively did that. The evidence was in plain sight on ALL those listings but you wanted to believe differently. That's a bad habit that will get in the way of a lot of things working out for you, more on that later...

Little and often until you know how to manage your emotions around finances.

You can't see anything, no one does. It's just guesses and feelings based on emotionally clouded beliefs based on incomplete facts at best and blatant manipulation at worst. Understand the difference between seeing and SEEING. You don't see this. (whether it actually happens or not)

FOMO again! Check your emotions. Fear will be the biggest drain on your bank account. All markets play on this especially financial based ones. Its called 'dumb money' for a reason

 

Thanks & agreed 100% as yes it is emotionally fear driven. I was looking at stocks, but as you say its an easy way to loose all your money over night, especially with in an economic downturn (my dad was a successful stockbroker in the 80's, you would never guess today as he has not managed/invested his wealth). As I am new I am still learning, I intend to back off from this and come back to it with a more refreshed outlook, now i have bing learnt the basics of what's what. i tend to do that, but putting that bid on was very silly & I know that, At least Im being honest about it. 😀

8 hours ago, Airhead said:

Most people here my self excluded, seem to very knowledgeable and have quite a few years experience in the world of precious metals but everyone has thier own strategy which reflects thier own circumstances, from those who seem to buy quite a lot on a regular basis to those who only buy infrequently. I tend to keep away from numismatic (pretty) coins as I would probably loose my shirt. If I have made anything it has always been more by luck than judgement. I also tend to steer clear of fleabay, although to be fair a number of established forum traders have a presence there.

To answer your question about a bulk buy, if you have an amount of Fiat sitting in an account at a very low interest rate that you do not foresee being needed in the immediate future, then sure convert it to Gold, Sovereigns perhaps as they are very liquid. A very good resource has written been by a forum member @Darr3nG http://goldprice.eu5.net/. Otherwise little and often and as your circumstances allow.    

My own way of looking at it is that I do not like the financial system as it is, it seems to be a bit of a ponzy scheme and do not see it ending well. So any excess savings are converted to Gold as it seems to me to be an honest way of storing ones wealth. I was at one point buying quite a bit of Silver from Europe to avoid the dreaded VAT but compared to Gold, Silver, it seems to me to be more of a speculative purchase so I now tend to mainly concentrate on Gold although I do like the 2oz Queens Beasts series in Silver. Some people like ETFs, but opinion is divided, shall we say.

Good luck on your journey and perhaps to enjoy what you do buy. 

Yes I do want to turn a proportion of paper cash into more of a physical asset in he short term & then make it more of a gradual thing (ie a planned regular investment scheme when/if I ever get back to work. Interesting about the gold vs silver, as it's so much more expensive its more of a tough decision for me, but i guess a lot less space is taken up & as you say the smaller domination coins sell easily? Is the Europe VAT silver worth it as I looked into that initially with the bulk buy. Or is it just easier buying on here as there seems to be a lot of 1oz & 10oz;s being sold on the forum. Is it usually that many listing btw. or is it just because the price has recently gone up (albeit down again)? Interesting about the sovereigns, I have not really looked that deeply into gold, but I shall start there. I have read a few times that some members wished they had bought more gold from the start, but maybe a combination of the two would be wise. Not even looked at Platinum, but as i say Im dipping out of it for a week or so to focus on other projects and remove my emotions a bit. 

[Airhead]

IMHO Silver is a good investment as many believe that it is woefully undervalued, primarily due to manipulation by those who have a vested interest in keeping the price low, which in the coming economic times may prove rather harder than they anticipated. If the true price of Silver was based on the actual rarity of the element then a ratio of about ten to one, compared to Gold would be a fair price, so stick a zero on the end of the price for a rough guide to actual value. I have heard that it should be closer to the price of Gold, but that could be more wishful thinking or people who wish to sell you some. It does take up a lot of space as you point out. 

The forum does operate a group buying scheme for purchases from Europe which is quite safe and trustworthy. I was buying Silver before I knew of the forum, unfortunately, so I was buying on my tod, from Estonia which has Zero rating for VAT. If you have a Revolut account you can convert on the fly and save on currency conversion costs. There is quite a bit of Silver sold on the forum so it is easy to pick up, but full tubes do not come up so often. If you were interested in buying 100 ounces at a time, then you would find it easier to go the European route.

The smaller denominations in gold are very easy to sell and Sovereigns especially, as they are internationally recognised. In fact, l know of travelers who sew a couple of Sovereigns into clothing or foot ware as an emergency source of “get out of jail card” funds. That is the beauty of Gold, no matter what is stamped on it, it remains an internationally recognised store of wealth and value and has for thousands of years.

[Melon]

4 hours ago, Airhead said:

If the true price of Silver was based on the actual rarity of the element then a ratio of about ten to one, compared to Gold would be a fair price, so stick a zero on the end of the price for a rough guide to actual value.

This logic gets repeated so many times but makes absolutely no sense. Gold's value is not just based on rarity, it's based on what people are willing to pay for it. There's plenty of rare elements. The logic that there's 10x as much silver as gold so therefore silver should be 1/10 of gold price is deeply flawed IMO. 

[Airhead]

13 minutes ago, Melon said:

This logic gets repeated so many times but makes absolutely no sense. Gold's value is not just based on rarity, it's based on what people are willing to pay for it. There's plenty of rare elements. The logic that there's 10x as much silver as gold so therefore silver should be 1/10 of gold price is deeply flawed IMO. 

True, but that is how I view things. I would not base my purchasing decisions on a GSR of 10 because of as you say, people tend to pay much more for Gold and are happy to do so. But as far as value is concerned, I value Gold only ten times more than Silver not 100 times as the current GSR defines it. It is a personal world view and who knows it may become a little more mainstream 😋.

[Melon]

31 minutes ago, Airhead said:

True, but that is how I view things. I would not base my purchasing decisions on a GSR of 10 because of as you say, people tend to pay much more for Gold and are happy to do so. But as far as value is concerned, I value Gold only ten times more than Silver not 100 times as the current GSR defines it. It is a personal world view and who knows it may become a little more mainstream 😋.

Yea mate you're perfectly entitled to your view and not intending to say you're wrong about what the right GSR should be (I have no idea), just think the logic doesn't quite stack in reality. 

Couldn't we equally argue that if GSR is supposed to be 10 based on amount of available metal then the gold price should tumble? After all there's all this silver available at 100th of the cost, so gold could fall to compensate! Perhaps the silver price is right and the gold price is vastly overvalued. But nobody ever tells the story that way around because it's far less appetising to everyone involved 😛

Personally I don't believe in either option, so just food for thought. 

[Airhead]

7 minutes ago, Melon said:

Yea mate you're perfectly entitled to your view and not intending to say you're wrong about what the right GSR should be (I have no idea), just think the logic doesn't quite stack in reality. 

Couldn't we equally argue that if GSR is supposed to be 10 based on amount of available metal then the gold price should tumble? After all there's all this silver available at 100th of the cost, so gold could fall to compensate! Perhaps the silver price is right and the gold price is vastly overvalued. But nobody ever tells the story that way around because it's far less appetising to everyone involved 😛

Personally I don't believe in either option, so just food for thought. 

Totally agree that logic and reality are not particularly good bedfellows especially in the world of financials perhaps that is the source of the saying that markets can be wrong for longer than you can remain solvent 

Another way of viewing it which supports the idea that Gold is vastly over priced (rather than over valued) is based on usefulness.

Silver is far and away the best conductor of electricity, Silver is the best reflector of light and Silver is the second best conductor of heat - the best is strangely enough Diamond being pure carbon. Silver has excellent antibacterial properties. Gold on the other hand does not corrode but looks pretty.

Perhaps the love of gold originates in the belief that the Gods of ancient Egypt were made of Gold or at least had golden skin. On a philosophical level it is held that the Sun rules Gold and the Moon rules Silver. Sun being the masculine and in past times valued more than the feminine, although in our modern times with equality uppermost in peoples minds perhaps a GSR of one would be the most equitable 😄 Perhaps there will be demonstrations outside the LBMA complaining of misogyny.🤣

[Melon]

33 minutes ago, Airhead said:

Totally agree that logic and reality are not particularly good bedfellows especially in the world of financials perhaps that is the source of the saying that markets can be wrong for longer than you can remain solvent 

Another way of viewing it which supports the idea that Gold is vastly over priced (rather than over valued) is based on usefulness.

Silver is far and away the best conductor of electricity, Silver is the best reflector of light and Silver is the second best conductor of heat - the best is strangely enough Diamond being pure carbon. Silver has excellent antibacterial properties. Gold on the other hand does not corrode but looks pretty.

Perhaps the love of gold originates in the belief that the Gods of ancient Egypt were made of Gold or at least had golden skin. On a philosophical level it is held that the Sun rules Gold and the Moon rules Silver. Sun being the masculine and in past times valued more than the feminine, although in our modern times with equality uppermost in peoples minds perhaps a GSR of one would be the most equitable 😄 Perhaps there will be demonstrations outside the LBMA complaining of misogyny.🤣

Equality for all PMs! ✊

[Goldmansacks]

I ounce of gold for £57..what could possibly go wrong??....😆

[Stacktastic]

On 08/06/2020 at 11:21, Goldmansacks said:

I ounce of gold for £57..what could possibly go wrong??....😆

Yes. Two ounces actually and thats what it sold for, probably to another 'house clearance' seller. 

I notice she has listed the coin I won again, but added in 'assume plated'. 

Also added the following, so clearly up to no good. I don't think the listings are illegal as it says 'assume plated'. Misleading - certainly especially if she got them from China & not a house clearance.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/fine-gold-bar-99-9-Bullion-Credit-Sussie-House-Clearance/143626596294?hash=item2170cfefc6:g:vRkAAOSw6Gte02Cg
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fine-Gold-1967-Gold-Krugerrand-1oz-House-Clearance-Find-Coin/143626374518?hash=item2170cc8d76:g:v5wAAOSwmAZe1Paf 

Although on this one she has taken off the scales and weight - added a capsule and ''not sure how to check authenticity' and stated:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/House-Clearance-item-1967-Gold-Krugerrand-1oz/143626711527?hash=item2170d1b1e7:g:W-gAAOSwlsherXdN 

House Clearance items 1967 Gold Krugerrand 1oz. Condition is New.   assume a copy gold plated ?

I think the biggest looser is me really, I have binge studied all this and am very much more clued uno than I was even yesterday. 🙃
 

[Prophecy]

2 hours ago, toby said:

Yes. Two ounces actually and thats what it sold for, probably to another 'house clearance' seller. 

I notice she has listed the coin I won again, but added in 'assume plated'. 

Also added the following, so clearly up to no good. I don't think the listings are illegal as it says 'assume plated'. Misleading - certainly especially if she got them from China & not a house clearance.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/fine-gold-bar-99-9-Bullion-Credit-Sussie-House-Clearance/143626596294?hash=item2170cfefc6:g:vRkAAOSw6Gte02Cg
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fine-Gold-1967-Gold-Krugerrand-1oz-House-Clearance-Find-Coin/143626374518?hash=item2170cc8d76:g:v5wAAOSwmAZe1Paf 

Although on this one she has taken off the scales and weight - added a capsule and ''not sure how to check authenticity' and stated:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/House-Clearance-item-1967-Gold-Krugerrand-1oz/143626711527?hash=item2170d1b1e7:g:W-gAAOSwlsherXdN 

House Clearance items 1967 Gold Krugerrand 1oz. Condition is New.   assume a copy gold plated ?

I think the biggest looser is me really, I have binge studied all this and am very much more clued uno than I was even yesterday. 🙃
 

Check out the feedback. There are a lot of people who do not know they bought fakes. It's clearly very lucrative for her.

[dicker]

Someone bought a Perth Mint 1Oz Bar for GBP565..... Ouch