BullionVault down.

[BackyardBullion]

3 hours ago, Prophecy said:

I think this triggered inspiration for a new @BackyardBullion video

Amazingly, I actually filmed this video about 5 hours before this thread went live last week - it was a topic that I was thinking about for a while!

[TheApe]

This is a very biased and self interest led video.

A little bit disappointing, general good videos but you have lost a lot of respectability.

[BackyardBullion]

7 minutes ago, TheApe said:

This is a very biased and self interest led video.

A little bit disappointing, general good videos but you have lost a lot of respectability.

Hey, everyone is entitled to their own opinions - but apparently not me!? 

[TheApe]

1 minute ago, BackyardBullion said:

Hey, everyone is entitled to their own opinions - but apparently not me!? 

Opinions are one thing, but I felt like this wasnt a balanced opinion but an agenda.

 

Let me give you an example, someone new would like to invest in silver. They decide to buy 1,000 ounces.

The cheapest 100 ounce bar right now is 1647 at Bairds. The cost to buy 10 with VAT is 19,764 euro. 

Now lets take price at BullionVault to buy 100 ounce at current spot, 15,816 euro. Then at BullionVault you have a 7 euro monthly storage fee. But you will need to consider storing yourself with physical.

Now when you sell you will have a small .8 percent fee at Bullionvault. But you may well do a lot better then selling physical both money wise and time wise.

 

This is massive savings and you are saying in title "Vaulting is a really bad idea". I understand there are risks but Bullionvault have been in business for nearly 20 years. Its just downright terrible advice to ignore these services. I would have more confidence dealing with Bullionvault than some random guy on a forum but yet you are not saying this is a bad idea.

[BackyardBullion]

10 minutes ago, TheApe said:

Opinions are one thing, but I felt like this wasnt a balanced opinion but an agenda.

 

Let me give you an example, someone new would like to invest in silver. They decide to buy 1,000 ounces.

The cheapest 100 ounce bar right now is 1647 at Bairds. The cost to buy 10 with VAT is 19,764 euro. 

Now lets take price at BullionVault to buy 100 ounce at current spot, 15,816 euro. Then at BullionVault you have a 7 euro monthly storage fee. But you will need to consider storing yourself with physical.

Now when you sell you will have a small .8 percent fee at Bullionvault. But you may well do a lot better then selling physical both money wise and time wise.

 

This is massive savings and you are saying in title "Vaulting is a really bad idea". I understand there are risks but Bullionvault have been in business for nearly 20 years. Its just downright terrible advice to ignore these services. I would have more confidence dealing with Bullionvault than some random guy on a forum but yet you are not saying this is a bad idea.

Did you actually listen to any of the content I made? 

I presented the reasons why I do not think having silver in numbers on a screen is a good idea!

Physical silver and gold is (in my opinion) so much more secure and also so much LESS risk if the world truly went to hell.

If you want to play the numbers, then fine but if you are like the vast majority of silver and gold buyers then not actually having your physical wealth on hand is no different to having money in a bank account - it just is not real unless you own it. 

This was the premise of my video and I am very proud of the argument I laid out and I like to think that many other people think that way as it has one of the highest viewer retention, watch time and view rates of my video portfolio within the first 24 hours. 

You disagree, fine - but no need to be so rude in your counter argument saying I have made a self interest video and that I have lost respectability....

[KevjustKev]

If someone was to have their silver, gold or whatever stored with a vault company, can you visit them and just ask for your stuff?

[TheApe]

6 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

You disagree, fine - but no need to be so rude in your counter argument saying I have made a self interest video and that I have lost respectability....

This is just how I feel about it. Sorry, no intention to be rude, just trying to be honest.

I understand you dont like having silver\gold in numbers and I am with you there. My problem is you havent given both sides of the argument enough weight or even considered there are pros/cons to both approaches.

 

E.g. what are the risks\cons of holding physical Gold. Let me try come up with some off the top of my head.

1. Just as with vaulted services there are also dodgey dealers who may give you fake gold. Do your research.
2. Will you hold 100k worth of Gold in your house?. It could be stolen or you could be targeted. Do your research.
3. Will you instead hold in a private vaulting service?. How reliable is said service. Do your research.
4. If you hold physical you are much less liquid. In most situations it will be harder to move to another asset.
5. As above, you will lose thousands and thousands of euros holding going psychical route in some situations. E.g. if you are a short term investor looking to play by ear for a year.

[TheApe]

2 minutes ago, tallthinkev said:

If someone was to have their silver, gold or whatever stored with a vault company, can you visit them and just ask for your stuff?

Im not sure on that but I know BullionVault are audited monthly by a third party to ensure all materials on their books is accounted for.

Audits are made public.

[KevjustKev]

6 minutes ago, TheApe said:

Im not sure on that but I know BullionVault are audited monthly by a third party to ensure all materials on their books is accounted for.

Audits are made public.

That doesn't sound so good. Thinking about it I can see that they may need a day or so to get things ready, but any longer than that isn't on.

[BackyardBullion]

7 minutes ago, TheApe said:

This is just how I feel about it. Sorry, no intention to be rude, just trying to be honest.

I understand you dont like having silver\gold in numbers and I am with you there. My problem is you havent given both sides of the argument enough weight or even considered there are pros/cons to both approaches.

 

E.g. what are the risks\cons of holding physical Gold. Let me try come up with some off the top of my head.

1. Just as with vaulted services there are also dodgey dealers who may give you fake gold. Do your research.
2. Will you hold 100k worth of Gold in your house?. It could be stolen or you could be targeted. Do your research.
3. Will you instead hold in a private vaulting service?. How reliable is said service. Do your research.
4. If you hold physical you are much less liquid. In most situations it will be harder to move to another asset.
5. As above, you will lose thousands and thousands of euros holding going psychical route in some situations. E.g. if you are a short term investor looking to play by ear for a year.

Well, I mentioned all of these things in passing in the video - the video is about why I would not vault. 

End of the day, it is my content and I say what I say and that is that - if you don't like it then fine, just be a little more respectful when delivering feedback. I am always open to a healthy debate on things, but when someone calls my video biased, full of self interest and losing respectability with no tangible justifications and/or arguments it comes across quite rude and confrontational. If you had written your reply like this quoted comment perhaps we could have had a healthy respectful debate on the subject. 

That is my feedback to you. 

[TheApe]

29 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

Well, I mentioned all of these things in passing in the video - the video is about why I would not vault. 

End of the day, it is my content and I say what I say and that is that - if you don't like it then fine, just be a little more respectful when delivering feedback. I am always open to a healthy debate on things, but when someone calls my video biased, full of self interest and losing respectability with no tangible justifications and/or arguments it comes across quite rude and confrontational. If you had written your reply like this quoted comment perhaps we could have had a healthy respectful debate on the subject. 

That is my feedback to you. 

You made some pretty damning comments about vaulting companies. You labelled all in one bracket by the title alone.

But yet I cant call you biased. Im sorry but when you run a silver business you have more standards to uphold then the average poster in my opinion. 

You are saying none of these companies can be trusted. How would you feel if I came out saying BackyardBullions silver cannot be trusted( in my opinion) as its only 70 percent silver. If I was to make such a comment I would surely be expected to back up comments with something more then opinion, some hard evidence. Bullionvault have been in business for 20 years, they have a better track record than most companies out there.

[TheApe]

38 minutes ago, tallthinkev said:

That doesn't sound so good. Thinking about it I can see that they may need a day or so to get things ready, but any longer than that isn't on.

My understanding it that they are accommodation towards big investors.

But if you are a small investor not so much.

[BackyardBullion]

6 minutes ago, TheApe said:

You made some pretty damning comments about vaulting companies. You labelled all in one bracket by the title alone.

But yet I cant call you biased. Im sorry but when you run a silver business you have more standards to uphold then the average poster in my opinion. 

You are saying none of these companies can be trusted. How would you feel if I came out saying BackyardBullions silver cannot be trusted( in my opinion) as its only 70 percent silver. If I was to make such a comment I would surely be expected to back up comments with something more then opinion, some hard evidence. Bullionvault have been in business for 20 years, they have a better track record than most companies out there.

I never mentioned bullionvault by name, and this video was filmed before their website even went down......

I am pretty done with this conversation now, you seem not to take any feedback on board from me and I don't think we are going to resolve this. You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine (regardless of whether I run a silver business or not by the way) and I think we should go our separate ways. 

[TheApe]

1 minute ago, BackyardBullion said:

I never mentioned bullionvault by name, and this video was filmed before their website even went down......

I am pretty done with this conversation now, you seem not to take any feedback on board from me and I don't think we are going to resolve this. You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine (regardless of whether I run a silver business or not by the way) and I think we should go our separate ways. 

Fine, and I really do enjoy your videos.

Have a good day.

[Martlet]

1 hour ago, TheApe said:

Opinions are one thing, but I felt like this wasnt a balanced opinion but an agenda.

Why do opinions have to be balanced?  

[TheApe]

Just now, Martlet said:

Why do opinions have to be balanced?  

Well, if an opinion isnt balanced, its driven by something other then facts. This is the only point I was making.

To form an opinion and to present an opinion all angles should be considered. Otherwise some credibility is lost in my opinion.

[Martlet]

2 minutes ago, TheApe said:

Well, if an opinion isnt balanced, its driven by something other then facts. This is the only point I was making.

To form an opinion and to present an opinion all angles should be considered. Otherwise some credibility is lost in my opinion.

That's a high bar set for personal views on interwebs. 

[TheApe]

6 minutes ago, Martlet said:

That's a high bar set for personal views on interwebs. 

Maybe true, but its the kind of standard I have come to expect by BackyardBullion. Most of his videos are great and very objective.

 

 

Anyway, just to note, I used both Bullionvault and physical(selling and buying). If I was to only to go down the physical route I would be out a serious amount of money.

I guess time will tell if I get bitten, but having done a lot of research on vaulting companies and weighing up all aspects, I would highly recommend.

[Prophecy]

6 hours ago, BackyardBullion said:

Amazingly, I actually filmed this video about 5 hours before this thread went live last week - it was a topic that I was thinking about for a while!

Good job bud. It's interesting how topics rise at the same time in different places. 

[onlyroadtoheaven]

I would find it hard to be offended by @BackyardBullion videos. He always come across as the protective older brother that I never had (if that doesn't get me a discount code I don't know what will). Having said that healthy respectful debate is good. In all honesty the debate has made me look at the likes of Bullion Vault in more detail therefor a perceived one sided video doesn't always mean the viewer will action the perceived agenda (or not in this case).  I may well invest.

I am far more offended by the stuff on the Covid thread and Housing bubble one. 

Stay safe all  

[Melon]

16 hours ago, TheApe said:

This is a very biased and self interest led video.

A little bit disappointing, general good videos but you have lost a lot of respectability.

BYB's business is selling premium poured silver products, not basic investment bullion. So I don't think it's driven by self interest at all and the link would be very tenuous between customers who may be on the fence between premium poured silver vs vaulted generic silver. In fact I've been pleasantly surprised to hear in several recent videos BYB recommend people to buy gold over silver if spending significant sums due to size/weight, which would be an odd thing for a self-interested silver seller to say! 

I think you've reached a different conclusion to BYB, but bear in mind the video isn't an attack on you or your approach, it's just an opinion with some rational on why BYB doesn't think vaulting is a good method. That's absolutely fine, nobody can objectively tell you you're wrong, we all just have our own opinions and weight the pros & cons differently. 

15 hours ago, TheApe said:

Im not sure on that but I know BullionVault are audited monthly by a third party to ensure all materials on their books is accounted for.

Audits are made public.

I wrote a response recently on another thread on why I would treat those audits with a pinch of salt. Note the context was effectively playing devil advocate to a video that had been posted about why a vaulting service (it happened to be BullionVault in this instance) was safe due to regular audits. Pasting below my response and for balance the video I'm referring to is also at the bottom.

-----------------------

A word of caution about this type of audit in general. It's a cautious/cynical view to consider, essentially playing devil advocate to the video pitch. I'm not stating facts, just thoughts. Quite enough caveats up front, onward!  

The video does give a clear explanation of an audit process and evidently a sales pitch to make clients feel safe about the investment. It may be 100% accurate, but it provides nothing I'd call evidence being cynical. They showed two numbers adding up which is a good start, but at the same time they show us very clearly in the video with their demo holder account that they can actually put whatever numbers they please in the list and still make it appear to reconcile. Not saying they do that, just pointing out the fallacy in the videos presentation - two lists adding up to the same total doesn't really prove anything other than a basic level of competence.  

As for how the list is validated they point to a basic reconciliation between two sets of records and an accountancy firm who audit the process. I was an accountant for a reputable global firm and conducted financial audits, there's a difference between public perception and reality when it comes to financial audits - it effectively amounts to "they told us they do X, we saw no evidence that says they don't do X, so to the best of our knowledge they do X". It's an exercise in covering your own backside. To give you a shiver... at 21 fresh out of Uni I was on point for auditing multi-billion balances for various clients within months of starting. That was post financial crisis by the way. One of the reasons I moved on from this type of work was frankly it felt like a colossal waste of time. (also "I'm a financial auditor" didn't have a great ring to it when chatting up the ladies 😂)

What would give me comfort is knowing that, for example, someone independent (e.g. the auditors) went to the vaults with their big long reconciled list, picked a sample of bars at random off the list with individual serial numbers, then viewed (and tested) those physical bars to check that those exact bars are actually there. That would alleviate some of the concern, and it may be exactly what they do, but the video doesn't elaborate that far and I wouldn't be terribly surprised to find the auditors complete all checks in the comfort of their own office. 

Of course the remaining worry would be double counting, so really the auditor would need a list from the storage facilities of all bars at that facility regardless of the front-end provider of the vaulted service. Otherwise the same bar may appear on multiple providers lists and true up perfectly to a reconciliation to the folk auditing each individual service, but it would be impossible to tell if the same bars were actually earmarked to multiple services without that master list. You'd be amazed how often double counting happens accidentally, let alone if there was deliberate foul play! 

TLDR - it's very easy to play with numbers and lists to make things appear neat and tidy. 

The video I was discussing - 

 

[MarcoSkin]

On 21/05/2020 at 19:30, C60 said:

Yes and no.

In this outbreak and what is happening with gold, it could be server load issues, where they don’t have the capacity to handle enough web requests. This could be indicative of a DoS (denial of service) attack or just a rogue update applied that has crippled the servers...or too many people wanting to get to their vault.

depending on their data centre/provider I’m surprised they haven't switched over to a secondary Site/server to maintain operations.

or it could be someone with a digger that has Just cut through the data cable... it has happened. 

Hi, I'm new here. I just started with bullionvault investing in gold online (beyond the etfs) and I found this thread. Since I am pretty sure that everyone who buys gold online is looking for more security, not less security, I stopped to read it to you. I was reading other opinions online about Bullionvault and how to buy physical gold, but the information on the forums may be more recent and first-hand. I see you know a lot about this subject. The statistics on uptime are super-important. For example, the bullionvault review on revenueland reports that the uptime of the BV website has been 99.9% for the last 3 years. I wanted to know if there is a way to see the past performance of a website. My tech friend told me that some websites may have a page with the status (and thus past status) publicly available. I couldn't find it on Bullionvault but I started monitoring BV with one of my tools. If there are any major interruptions I will post it here together with the registration of uptime I've started today. In the future I will ask you for more information about Bullionvault Tax & Fees.

Thank you